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Author Topic: cc&r's and hoa's  (Read 19379 times)
N3WAK
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Posts: 278




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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2011, 09:57:25 AM »

Why do we care whether it's a good idea for HOAs to exist, or whether living in a deed-restricted neighborhood increases property values?  It's a free world--nobody forced me to live in my deed-restricted neighborhood.  I chose to.  I might chafe under the antenna restrictions, and try to find work-arounds, but I purchased my home knowing about them in advance.  And, even if I didn't have "actual knowledge" of the CC&Rs, they were recorded in the property record when promulgated by the builder so that any potential buyer, by law, is deemed to have "constructive notice" of them.  This reminds me of the old adage: "look before you leap." 

If you are like me and live in a neighborhood with CC&Rs, they apply to you.  They're a fact of life.  In our country, we tout "the rule of law" and the sanctity of contracts.  So, we're stuck with the CC&Rs, unless we can get them changed in accordance with their provision concerning amendments.  (It'll be in there.)  While I sympathize with everybody who wants to put up a big antenna and can't, the fact is: (1) you and I had the freedom to choose to live in a different neighborhood, and (2) if we, in retrospect, decide we can't live with the CC&Rs we knew about when we bought our homes, you and I have the freedom to move. 

So, IMHO, I think we should stop debating the relative merits of living in a deed-restricted area, and figure out how we can get down to the important business of hamming in spite of the restrictions that we, perhaps inadviseably, agreed to when we bought where we did.  I am able to have a lot of fun with some relatively modest antennas.  While I can't have a 200' tower, I am, after all, an "amateur" and not the VOA.  And if at some point I decide that I can't live without a big tower--well, I've lived in both Kodiak, Alaska and Laramie, Wyoming, and I might just go back one day and put up a honking big tower.  In the meantime, living in Delaware with CC&Rs isn't so bad.  Plus, every time I key the mic I feel a bit like an HOA outlaw, which is kinda fun at my age. 

Good luck and 73, Tony  N3WAK


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WB2WIK
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Posts: 20603




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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2011, 10:19:02 AM »

Why do we care whether it's a good idea for HOAs to exist, or whether living in a deed-restricted neighborhood increases property values?  It's a free world--nobody forced me to live in my deed-restricted neighborhood.  I chose to.  I might chafe under the antenna restrictions, and try to find work-arounds, but I purchased my home knowing about them in advance.  And, even if I didn't have "actual knowledge" of the CC&Rs, they were recorded in the property record when promulgated by the builder so that any potential buyer, by law, is deemed to have "constructive notice" of them.  This reminds me of the old adage: "look before you leap."

I agree with you entirely.

I don't care much about these issues, but one thing that is annoying is when hams complain "I had absolutely no other choice!  Every single home here or anywhere near here has CC&Rs...yada, yada, yada."

That's a bit nutty because it's never true.  Every time someone posts something like that, if I see it and have some time, I post in response a "for sale" ad for a lovely covenant-free home very close to where they live -- and generally, that's one of dozens or hundreds I find.

The argument "there's no other choice" just isn't true.

Those, like you, who knew exactly what you were doing, are to be commended for making lemonade when life deals you lemons.  I love the Drake station -- looks great!  I still have my "original, bought new in 1978" TR-7/RV-7/PS-7 setup as one of my main stations at home and it still works perfectly.

I wish I hadn't sold my 2B. 

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N3WAK
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Posts: 278




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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2011, 02:06:41 PM »

Steve--Thanks for the kind words.  I know you, too, from your QRZ web page.  I looked you up some time ago because your posts always "make sense."  I always enjoy reading the  posts, like yours, that are sensible and civil, but not the other kind.  Hope to meet you on the air one of these days, especially if we're both using our Drakes! 

73, Tony N3WAK
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N2EY
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Posts: 3880




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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2011, 05:15:51 AM »

Why do we care whether it's a good idea for HOAs to exist, or whether living in a deed-restricted neighborhood increases property values?  It's a free world--nobody forced me to live in my deed-restricted neighborhood.  I chose to. 

I chose not to.

But I think there are a couple of valid concerns.

The first concern is that the existence *and expansion* of overly-restrictive CC&R/HOA homes continually reduces our choices - particularly when there are constraints like money, size, house age, etc. While it may be possible to find an unrestricted home in a particular area today, will that still be true in 10 years? 20 years? 

The second concern is the effect that existence *and expansion* of overly-restrictive CC&R/HOA homes have on newcomers. How many prospective hams - particularly young ones - do we lose each year because they can't put up a decent antenna?

I recall more than a few hams recalling that what got them interested in ham radio many years ago was seeing a local ham's antenna and asking questions. As our visibility drops, so does that recruitment effect.

The third concern is what I call "attitude". I've encountered some hams who live in HOA/CC&R situations who openly resent other hams who have big antennas. It's a variation on the "nobody should run high power" thing.

I've also encountered a few newcomer hams who wanted to know why we old-timers hadn't invented an efficient, inexpensive, no-tuner all-HF-band antenna that would fit in a townhouse attic and radiate a killer DX signal. When I tried to explain that the basic physics of antennas prevents it, the challenger would cite how much progress had been made in microprocessors, cell phones, satellite TV, etc., and say "You old-timers won't even TRY".

There are other concerns...

---

The one absolute rule I am sure of in the CC&R/HOA/antenna restrictions subject is that there are NO other absolute rules. It all depends on the situation - or, as the old RE saying goes, "location, location, location".

For example, I know places where $250,000 buys a really nice newer house on a big lot in a great neighborhood with no restrictions - and other places where the SAME house costs twice or triple that much, and $250,000 won't buy an extremely restricted townhouse.

There are HOAs that will let you put up a tower and beams if you just file the paperwork, and HOAs that will fine you for a stealth wire. There are CC&Rs that are enforced to the letter, and CC&Rs that nobody cares about.

There are places where "the county" makes all the rules, and places where "the county" has no real RE involvement at all - it's the township, borough or city.

There are places where PRB-1 is taken very seriously, and hams have reached reasonable accord with government, HOAs, etc. And places where PRB-1 is simply ignored.

IOW, when it comes to antenna restrictions, it's a case-by-case battle. What worked for you might or might not work for me. It all depends on the location.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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N7OQ
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Posts: 7




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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2011, 03:57:11 PM »

In California you would be hard pressed to buy a new house without CC&R's in the cities. Even the expensive homes here have CC&R's. When I bought my house in 1992 everything we looked at had them. So the house I bought  has them but we have no dues at all.

The developer for my housing project in forced the CC&R's until they were finished then a committee of 2 people and 1 alternet was to be voted on by all the home owners. Well the housing market was taking a dive and the company sold all their finished homes in a auction and sold all the empty lots to another developer who didn't have CC7R's and left town. Since then no one has ever voted in a in forcement committee and no one follows the rules in the CC&R's.

So I have slowly put up antennas, first a UHF/vhf then a ground mounted vertical in the back where you can see it and later a 43' vertical in the side yard where I have room to install radials. I have tried to stay low keyed and I don't say anything to my neighbors. Since I live on the inside of a Cul-de-sac only my closest neighbors have ever comminted on it and I just tell them it helps me receive better.

Another Area in town had the same thing happen and when a home owner tried to park his RV by the side of his house someone tried to enforced the CC&R rules and make him move it. Well it ended up in court and the owner of the RV walked around the development and took notes of all the violations he gave this to the judge and insisted that if he was to follow the rules he wanted everyone under these CC&R's to do the same. Well the parties who took him to court have several violation like different house color etc. So the judge told them if he enforced one he would enforced all, at which point the case was dropped.

So I keep a list just for that reason and I would be ready to get a petition started just in case it went that far. I just hope everything stays quite cheaper that way.
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WB2WIK
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Posts: 20603




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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2011, 05:22:09 PM »

In California you would be hard pressed to buy a new house without CC&R's in the cities. Even the expensive homes here have CC&R's.

I don't agree with that, at all.  However, I do agree with everything else you wrote.

I'm in a pretty big city (Los Angeles) and it's easy to find homes without CC&Rs, including brand new ones.  The "expensive homes" almost never have any.  I'm adjacent to Hidden Hills, one of the more prestigeous addresses in the area (average home price about $3 million or higher) and they don't have any CC&Rs there.  Bell Canyon, another prestigeous address only 3 miles from me, doesn't, either.

To my south, other prestigeous addresses like Palos Verdes Estates, Rolling Hills Estates and Rancho Palos Verdes (also average $3 million or higher per home, and there are thousands of homes) don't have CC&Rs.  There are many active hams there with towers and whatever kind of antennas they want to have.

New "tract homes" here mostly do have covenants.  That's why I wouldn't buy one, and bought a home built before covenants came in. Smiley
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N7OQ
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2011, 08:20:06 PM »

In California you would be hard pressed to buy a new house without CC&R's in the cities. Even the expensive homes here have CC&R's.

I don't agree with that, at all.  However, I do agree with everything else you wrote.

I'm in a pretty big city (Los Angeles) and it's easy to find homes without CC&Rs, including brand new ones.  The "expensive homes" almost never have any.  I'm adjacent to Hidden Hills, one of the more prestigeous addresses in the area (average home price about $3 million or higher) and they don't have any CC&Rs there.  Bell Canyon, another prestigeous address only 3 miles from me, doesn't, either.

To my south, other prestigeous addresses like Palos Verdes Estates, Rolling Hills Estates and Rancho Palos Verdes (also average $3 million or higher per home, and there are thousands of homes) don't have CC&Rs.  There are many active hams there with towers and whatever kind of antennas they want to have.

New "tract homes" here mostly do have covenants.  That's why I wouldn't buy one, and bought a home built before covenants came in. Smiley

Yeah I should have said in my area of California not California since California is huge and I only have experience with this small patch of California. But my plans are to move to a CC&R free zone someday, I would rather it be my home state of Washington but my wife had deep roots here so might only move to a new home here in the local area.
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KD4LLA
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Posts: 459




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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2011, 03:43:37 PM »

The only reason HOA's exist is for developers to sell homes.  Most folks who move into HOA home have no idea what they are getting into.  I grew up on a farm, and bought one house in an HOA area once, never again.  I now live on a lot that a developer could build 16 houses on.  I cannot imagine what it would be like to have another household within 200 feet of my residence, and I don't live in a McMansion either.

Mike
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W3LK
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Posts: 5639




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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2011, 05:17:31 PM »

HOA Stupidity:

"And finally, a homeowners association in Edgewater, Florida wants to ban children from playing outside.

The proposed new rule states -- quote -- "children will not be permitted to run, play tag or act boisterously on the association property."

Kids would not be allowed to play in common areas such as parking lots, driveways and around homes. Parents of offenders would face fines of $100.

At least 50 percent of homeowners would have to approve the new regulation in a vote later this month.
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GRADY
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« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2011, 06:38:45 PM »

I think it varies by area. There are areas in the Oklahoma City metro area that are all over the board. Million dollar homes with HOAs, as well as $150,000 to $200,000 that have them as well. There are also older neighborhoods that are 75 years old that have them as well.  There are $75,000 to $200,000 that don't. Some are small acreages, some are not. There is no rhyme or reason here as to how they come about. I would agree that the general thought is to preserve property values. Unfortunately, I live in an area that has them. Having said that, I managed to land myself a seat on the architectural committee, and they have to approve antennas. Antennas are not strictly forbidden, they just have to be approved.
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KF5KZX just the new guy on the block!
K4KWH
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Posts: 51




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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2011, 08:18:00 AM »

HOA Stupidity:

"And finally, a homeowners association in Edgewater, Florida wants to ban children from playing outside.

The proposed new rule states -- quote -- "children will not be permitted to run, play tag or act boisterously on the association property."

Kids would not be allowed to play in common areas such as parking lots, driveways and around homes. Parents of offenders would face fines of $100.

At least 50 percent of homeowners would have to approve the new regulation in a vote later this month.

HOA Stupidity:

"And finally, a homeowners association in Edgewater, Florida wants to ban children from playing outside.

The proposed new rule states -- quote -- "children will not be permitted to run, play tag or act boisterously on the association property."

Kids would not be allowed to play in common areas such as parking lots, driveways and around homes. Parents of offenders would face fines of $100.

At least 50 percent of homeowners would have to approve the new regulation in a vote later this month.



Whoa, whoa,  WHOA!!!!!!!  HOLD it RIGHT there!!   Now THAT's reason for a butt-whuppin' right there! Wink This is one of the reasons I will NEVER live in a HOA-controlled community!  These little snot-nosed, snivelling  4-eyed Nazis get what they think is a bit of power, and it becomes a nightmare of control and restrictions not ONLY of cosmetic and asthetic reasons, but that of one's BEHAVIOR.  That, I will NOT tolerate!  They're gonna have to get around on the BACK side of my shotgun before they will do that! Angry

Now that I have issued the strong words and my known feelings towards HOA's, let me also say this.  I UNDERSTAND some of the reasoning for the regulations, but not to the extent that I am willing to live under them. It is NOT true that one cannot find a very nice, well-built OLDER home in a NICE, QUIET neighborhood that isn't "run down" or "in decline".  I would place MY house beside ANY of the new cookie-cutter houses as to neighborhood, lack of crime, AND the structural integrity.  Built in 1956, it boasts 1900 sq feet, a basement, two fireplaces /w woodstove downstairs, large kitchen 3 br, one bath (with provision for another downstairs, which I don't need now).  There are 2 carports AND a garage, big enough for my wood shop and "putter palace", and a deck above the carport.  There's room for my radio shack and a den downstairs, a pantry.  In 1992 I obtained a bunch of rough-sawn red oak with which I made into REAL paneling of ship-lap. Basement is DRY.  Crime is almost non-existent and the neighbors are great.  We take great care of our property without any one telling us what to do with what is OURS and no one else's business.  The house is STOUT---even went thu at least ONE hurricane, solid as the rock of Gibralter---which is something that won't be said forpre-fabbed, thrown-together JUNK that surrounds my older neighborhood.  I wouldn't HAVE one of those pieces of crap if they GAVE it to me!!! My house has stood for 55 years. I doubt "Creekside", a nearby HOA neighborhood of squeezed-together boxes, will BE here that long.  HOA?  SPIT-TOOEY!!!!!  Y'all come over on my property and start telling me how many cars I can park in the yard and see what happens!!  Grin Shocked  Complain about my antennas, boy!  They'll STILL be there!!!!  LMAO!~
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KF7CG
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« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2011, 10:50:57 AM »

That rules out living near many of the larger cities that have been quietly forcing HOAs by declaring any community that doesn't have one, either mandated when built or mandated later by local residents, as blighted.

In the area around Columbus, OH you can not sub-divide more than 4 lots a year without generating an HOA and CCRs for the subdivided lots. This was pushed onto all the builders in the area by a very vocal group that thought that CCRs and HOAs were necessary for good communities. This was just after 2000 and may have changed again.

City ordinances in area prohibited basketball hoops on garages or portable hoops in driveways (safety concerns); you couldn't leave a garage door open for more than 30 minutes at a time either.

That is why I commuted 35 miles one way to work!

KF7CG
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K5USF
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Posts: 83




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« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2011, 02:49:11 PM »

This is not about choices, this is about whether or not you support legislation (both House and Senate) that investigates extending the reasonable accommodation to private land use agreements.

I sincerely hope all Hams will support this legislation.  In my opinion, this "choices" (you chose to live with HOAs/CC&Rs)" argument could negatively impact the legislation.  Let's not provide ammo for those that oppose us.

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N3WAK
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Posts: 278




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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2011, 05:44:21 PM »

Jim--You write, "In my opinion, this 'choices' (you chose to live with HOAs/CC&Rs) argument could negatively impact the legislation.  Let's not provide ammo for those that oppose us." 

Look, I don't like CC&Rs that prohibit, or greatly limit, ham antennas either.  But, some non-hams just don't like the big towers, yagis, and other antennas erected by hams.  I really don't blame them.  I don't like neon-green houses, junked cars, and pink flamingoes--but I don't mind big, honking antennas.  I guess it's all a matter of point of view.  I don't blame a builder, or group of homeowners, establishing CC&Rs in a neighborhood.  If people decide they want to change them to something less restrictive, every CC&R that I've seen provides for changes when those changes are approved by a majority (or some specified percentage) of the homeowners.  That's democracy in action, and even if our "freedom to ham" is impinged, shouldn't we support "the will of the people"?  Hams are also free to live somewhere else...or at least put a dipole up in their attic.  A lot of hams have a lot of fun on modest, stealthy, or attic antennas. 
 
You mention "legislation," but don't give any specifics.  Are you talking federal, state, or local?  Is the legislation you mention published on the web?  Who's sponsoring it?  Is this specific legislation, or something down the line that's hopeful? 

Lastly, while I am in favor of hamming and opposed to CC&Rs that prohibit antennas, making civil, intelligent comments, whether pro or con, is hardly "provid[ing] ammo" for people who support restrictive CC&Rs.  When done so courteously, aren't we supposed to have freedom of speech?  I don't see how we can condemn CC&Rs as somehow infringing on our personal liberties but, at the same time, suggest that posters should engage in self-censorship before posting.  To me, that's inconsistent. 

If hams are unable to articulate persuasive, compelling arguments in favor of CC&Rs that don't prohibit antennas, then we have no right to complain about the consequences. 

Just my humble opinion.  73, Tony N3WAK



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K5USF
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Posts: 83




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« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2011, 06:27:49 PM »

Tony et al,

The legislation is on the ARRL website and is a top priority for the ARRL...It is federal (S191 and HR81).  I have covenants (builders covenants) that are not enforced because 95% of the lots have been developed.  And by the way, I became a ham AFTER I moved in.  I wouldn't have become a ham if I could not install a reasonable HF antenna. I live with what I have under the current circumstances.  I put up a 31 or 43 foot slim fiberglass vertical.  I take it down while at work, out of town or bad weather.  I for one would like some legal options - That is reasonable accommodation.  In my case, a 31 foot green fiberglass vertical should be acceptable.  A 75 foot tower with a 3-30MHz log periodic beam would be absurd in my neighborhood.  I believe we are in violent agreement.  My point is: Hams should become familiar with the legislation that the ARRL is pursuing and support it.  Telling  (not you) someone to run a wire in their attic for a HF antenna is joke.  If you really want to get on the air, put a slinky in your attic..UGH...Or better yet you can follow the city of Palmdale, CA and take your tower down and be forced to run VHF/UHF only!  Or you can live in cave out in the country...If we do not unify and come together on key issues, ham radio will soon become irrelevant and I will spend more time golfing and fishing.  My two cents.
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