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Author Topic: Please Help!!!! RFI My Neighbor Surround Sound System  (Read 13820 times)
W8JX
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2011, 12:10:36 PM »


No, most likely not.  Most likely, it is caused by faulty consumer electronics gear, which typically has poor filtering (If at all).

So, if the operator's station is compliant (Good chance it is if he's not having problems), then the fault lies with the neighbor's equipment, not with the ham operator.

Not likely. A lot of equipment cannot play well in a high power RF saturation field. I have been a ham for 42 years now and while I am "pro Ham" I am not a subscriber to "its your problem not mine" Either placate neighbor or restrict power out as it is not your "right" to interfere with their space. Such things can give also hams a bad name.  I have never had a complaint where I live now but have in past many many years ago. When I had problems I restricted operation to times and power levels that would not cause problems and never tried to imply it was their problem. I supposed now they need to start making and labeling Ham Proof consumer electronics for people that have inconsiderate hams running 1.5kw+ next door to them causing RFI issues. 
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W3LK
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 01:56:04 PM »



Not best advise here. Yes neighbor might be irate but "you" are causing problem not him and you need to work it out somehow.

Pure BS! No matter what the neighbor's OPINION, if the ham's station is clean, the problem is totally the neighbor's problem to solve and the ham is under no further responsibility to solve it. Been there; dealt with that.
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W3LK
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2011, 01:59:08 PM »


But the catch here is that every problem related to this IS caused by ham because were it not for the ham next door running power there would be no problem

Another blathering load of BS from you.  It's all the ham's fault.
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KF7CG
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2011, 02:08:59 PM »

My worst problems never were from running excess power!!!! Beast I could ever muster out of my FT101ZD (the dual 6146 model) was 100 watts peak, never had problems with my home electronics other than the telephones and that was quickly solved with phone company supplied filters.

Closest neighbor was better than 70 feet away, had troubles with his stereo, 60 foot leads to remote speakers on a cheap stereo. Go interference even when off so no amount of filtering my end would help. Timing wouldn't help either since I would have to wait till he wasn't home to run radio. Same neighborhood go into phones of neighbors about 1/4 mile up road. Old phones, bad phone installations, and worse in home wiring. The neighbor that was 1/4 mile away got phone filters from phone company, problem solved. Other neighbor just complained every time I got on the air. His old stereo died and he changed his whole installation, problem solved.

My least problems were when I was running an old Kenwood TS511s that put out about 250 watts peak from sweep tube finals. But lived in swampu area but with close neighbors. Had a Tri-Bander up to advertise my presence too.

Most of times worst complaints are when running well under limits but have problem with incompatible neighborhood electronics. The old model answering machines were an RFI nightmare.

KF7CG
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W8JX
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2011, 02:49:14 PM »


But the catch here is that every problem related to this IS caused by ham because were it not for the ham next door running power there would be no problem

Another blathering load of BS from you.  It's all the ham's fault.

Nothing "blathering" about it guy. Ham does not run high power, there is not a problem, runs high power and there is a problem. It does not take a rocket scientist to see this but it does take a lot of "lawyering", BS and smoke and mirrors to make it all the neighbors fault. No ham radio no problem. You need to placate neighbor rather than try to blame him.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 02:51:17 PM by W8JX » Logged

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K1CJS
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« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2011, 06:43:15 PM »

But the catch here is that every problem related to this IS caused by ham because were it not for the ham next door running power there would be no problem

This is also poor logic.  If the neighbor was friendly enough to work with the ham, or simply if the neighbor wasn't there, there would also be no problem.

To pin the blame for the problem on the ham--even if he does occasionally run a full kilowatt--is ludicrous.  The blame is really shared, and if the neighbor refuses help, is on him.  The ham is doing nothing wrong, simply something unorthodox--but permissible under his license if his station is clean.
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W8JX
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« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2011, 07:01:27 PM »

If the neighbor was friendly enough to work with the ham, or simply if the neighbor wasn't there, there would also be no problem.

This has some merit but irate or not it needs to be mediated not escalated.  I new of a guy that played "not my fault" long ago and found that several pins had been pushed into his coax and cut off so they could not be seen.  Some people get really upset about interference.

To pin the blame for the problem on the ham--even if he does occasionally run a full kilowatt--is ludicrous.  The blame is really shared, and if the neighbor refuses help, is on him.  The ham is doing nothing wrong, simply something unorthodox--but permissible under his license if his station is clean.

He does not have a blanket wavier here because he might be "clean" for intermod and harmonic radiation at or below reg levels but what is the reg level for RF field saturation? You cannot hide and say it is not my fault. Any ham that promotes this attitude does not do hobby proud. If a ham is dead set in running max power, if they cannot placate neighbor, they need to either turn down wick or move to a rural area where it is not a problem. In a look of ways, RF saturation and interference is not much different than man made RFI interference. Neighbor could get smart and make a RFI generator of sort and render radio equipment unusable at times and then argue that it does not bother him? You get more with sugar than salt.
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KF7CG
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2011, 07:22:37 AM »

Moving to a rural area, unless it is in the middle of a square section may not help! All my interference complaints have occured in rural areas on lots sized over 1 acre with the antenna near the middle of the lot. And until 6 months ago I didn't even own an amplifier.

Rural areas tend to come with poorer attention to infrastructure detail and therefore open more possibilities for RFI especially to telephone service. No DSL or cable in most rural areas. Broadcast signals are often quite weak so the threshold for interference to radio and TV broadcasts is enhanced. This is anecdotal; rural areas are more interference prone that urban areas.

KF7CG
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W8JX
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2011, 07:46:22 AM »


Rural areas tend to come with poorer attention to infrastructure detail and therefore open more possibilities for RFI especially to telephone service. No DSL or cable in most rural areas. Broadcast signals are often quite weak so the threshold for interference to radio and TV broadcasts is enhanced. This is anecdotal; rural areas are more interference prone that urban areas.

KF7CG

Well here in Ohio broad band access is not a problem in most rural areas. I have had cable internet access for about 8 years now and I live on 12 acres. My current broadband speed is 15Mbit/sec. DSL (which is harder to implement in rural areas) became available a few years ago here. TV reception here has always been good even with digital TV now (I do not have cable TV) and I have about 30 channels. I have basically no local man made noise issues out here and nearest neighbor house is about 150 yards from antenna to east and west, about 200 yards to north and over 400 yards to south. Never had a complaint in 25 years here. What is surprising is that I have a 60kv sub station feed on 80 foot poles about 100 yards from antenna but have never had any problems or noise related to it that I have seen. When atmospheric noise is low, I frequently have a S1 or less noise level here on 20 and above even in summer. In winter S1 or less is possible on 40. I have a freind in town that is lucky to get below S7 noise at times.
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KF7CG
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Posts: 866




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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2011, 02:55:35 PM »

You got it lucky. Where I was until about 10 years ago wasn't so lucky. Halfway betweenColumbus and Dayton and close to Springfield, it was outside the city limits of two villages of about 1500 people each. With a good antenna on could get both Dayton and Columbus channels at fringe area levels. Cable stops at the limits of both small towns so those in the county area don't get coverage. The electric coop is great but the phone service is not so great.

Where I am now is out on the border of Tennessee and less served by broadcast TV. Cable ends about 1.5 miles from my place and I am on an old central office unit so DSL won't be coming any time soon. My boss lives in a new home in a small cluster, 5, new homes further out than I. Because he is on a new central office unit, he gets good DSL; still no cable.

When I lived in Idaho Falls, Memphis, and Cleveland I had all the amenities but by chosing the right home didn't have significant restrictions. Same type stations and antennas always caused less RFI problems in the city. Generally no RFI to others in town, more general radio noise though.

KF7CG
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KC2UGV
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Posts: 441




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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2011, 07:08:44 AM »


No, most likely not.  Most likely, it is caused by faulty consumer electronics gear, which typically has poor filtering (If at all).

So, if the operator's station is compliant (Good chance it is if he's not having problems), then the fault lies with the neighbor's equipment, not with the ham operator.

Not likely. A lot of equipment cannot play well in a high power RF saturation field. I have been a ham for 42 years now and while I am "pro Ham" I am not a subscriber to "its your problem not mine" Either placate neighbor or restrict power out as it is not your "right" to interfere with their space.

The RF spectrum is not "their space"...

Quote
Such things can give also hams a bad name.  I have never had a complaint where I live now but have in past many many years ago. When I had problems I restricted operation to times and power levels that would not cause problems and never tried to imply it was their problem. I supposed now they need to start making and labeling Ham Proof consumer electronics for people that have inconsiderate hams running 1.5kw+ next door to them causing RFI issues. 

No, they need to just put filtering in place on their gear, to reject unwanted RF that can cause undesired operation.

If you lived next to an AM broadcast station, and you were getting RF interference in your home, would you expect the broadcast station to turn their power down?

No.

And neither would the FCC.  The FCC will instruct the consumer to look at their device, at the Part 15 disclaimer.

Operating within your license restraints is not being an "inconsiderate neighbor".  It's doing what is allowed per your license.  Of course, I also add the contingent phrase,"If your station is clean, and within regs".  And the regs also requires a RF field strength evaluation to be done if one is running high power.
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KC2UGV
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2011, 07:10:02 AM »

If the neighbor was friendly enough to work with the ham, or simply if the neighbor wasn't there, there would also be no problem.

This has some merit but irate or not it needs to be mediated not escalated.  I new of a guy that played "not my fault" long ago and found that several pins had been pushed into his coax and cut off so they could not be seen.  Some people get really upset about interference.

To pin the blame for the problem on the ham--even if he does occasionally run a full kilowatt--is ludicrous.  The blame is really shared, and if the neighbor refuses help, is on him.  The ham is doing nothing wrong, simply something unorthodox--but permissible under his license if his station is clean.

He does not have a blanket wavier here because he might be "clean" for intermod and harmonic radiation at or below reg levels but what is the reg level for RF field saturation? You cannot hide and say it is not my fault. Any ham that promotes this attitude does not do hobby proud. If a ham is dead set in running max power, if they cannot placate neighbor, they need to either turn down wick or move to a rural area where it is not a problem. In a look of ways, RF saturation and interference is not much different than man made RFI interference. Neighbor could get smart and make a RFI generator of sort and render radio equipment unusable at times and then argue that it does not bother him? You get more with sugar than salt.

Actually, the operator's license IS a blanket waiver, if they are clean for intermod and harmonics; and meets the RF exposure maximums for an uncontrolled space.
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W8JX
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Posts: 6470




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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2011, 08:32:54 AM »

The RF spectrum is not "their space"...

Their "Space" is the right to expect undue interference. Also, while it has never been challenged, as a home owner you also own the "air" above your property. Granted you cannot keep RF out but a neighbor is not suppose to KNOWINGLY cause interference with you. 

No, they need to just put filtering in place on their gear, to reject unwanted RF that can cause undesired operation.

No always that simple and why should they bear expense and effort to deal with a arrogant ham next door that may say it is your problem not mine.

If you lived next to an AM broadcast station, and you were getting RF interference in your home, would you expect the broadcast station to turn their power down?

You miss point here, guy did not knowingly buy a house next to a radio station and likely would not of got current house if he had a crystal ball that told of future RFI problems. Also home owner can take a hit on his property value at resale because of they must disclose any problems with house due to disclosure laws and they could get sued if the fail to mention than a irate ham neighbor causes RFI problems. And this disclosure can reduce homes market value and give grounds to seek compensation. There are several possible "grounds" for action against a irate ham so beware.

And neither would the FCC.  The FCC will instruct the consumer to look at their device, at the Part 15 disclaimer.

I would not even attempt to "speak" for what FCC might say or do here. Do you work for them?

Operating within your license restraints is not being an "inconsiderate neighbor".  It's doing what is allowed per your license.  Of course, I also add the contingent phrase,"If your station is clean, and within regs".  And the regs also requires a RF field strength evaluation to be done if one is running high power.

Knowingly causing interference and not mitigating it is being a very inconsiderate neighbor and possibly illegal. Maybe this is the difference between old school and new school hams. I follow old school and need no lawyers or smoke and mirrors to try to justify my operation or willingly cause interference while the new school seems to promote that if you have the money to buy the amps and lawyers that it may be your "right" to interfere with others and it is their problem to deal with it.  Personally  would not want to go to court over new school theory because I doubt a jury would side with your right to interfere or reduce someone else property value because of your actions.
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KF7CG
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2011, 11:33:26 AM »

Reading through this I catch the undeniable tone that some think that it is ALWAYS the fault of the Ham when there is RFI.

You say it is inconsiderate to run "power" and cause interference. Is power 1.5KW 100 feet from neighbor? Is it the same level at 600 feet. Or is it what ever causes interference at whatever the distance? How about 100 watts at a quarter of a mile? Bad phone company work and cheap telephones have been demonstrated to cause that. What about 100 watts at 150 feet getting into a stereo that is turned off.

OK, the neighbor has sh** for electronics, you cut to 100 watts, then 50 and still have problems; what next Qiet Hours! Yes I remember when they were around. Then of course electronics manufacturers were supposed to use best common practice when providing interference rejection. Now part 15 lets the manufacturer get away with elimination of almos all filtering unless RFI occurs.

By the way how far from your other consumer electronics does your cell phone cause noise?

KF7CG
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W8JX
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2011, 02:04:57 PM »

Reading through this I catch the undeniable tone that some think that it is ALWAYS the fault of the Ham when there is RFI.

What got me going is that some implied that it is their "right" to interfere. Meaning that neighbor is most likely at fault by default. Myself I would never KNOWINGLY interfere with someone else s house (or even my own) but it seem many would. 

You say it is inconsiderate to run "power" and cause interference. Is power 1.5KW 100 feet from neighbor? Is it the same level at 600 feet. Or is it what ever causes interference at whatever the distance? How about 100 watts at a quarter of a mile? Bad phone company work and cheap telephones have been demonstrated to cause that. What about 100 watts at 150 feet getting into a stereo that is turned off.

You are warping this all out of shape here. When you deal with RFI through overload saturation, the further you are from antenna, the less saturation there is. For every doubling of distance the strength is generally cut in half. 1 KW is going to need more consideration than 100 watts also higher frequencies (ie 20 and above) tend to induce more RF on electronic devices. And then there are ham that run over legal limit and aggravate things. 

OK, the neighbor has sh** for electronics, you cut to 100 watts, then 50 and still have problems; what next Qiet Hours! Yes I remember when they were around. Then of course electronics manufacturers were supposed to use best common practice when providing interference rejection. Now part 15 lets the manufacturer get away with elimination of almos all filtering unless RFI occurs.

If you are having RFI problems at 100 watts it could be neighbor devices or you have a dirty signal too. But, when you are running 1kw+ and problems develop and want to tell neighbor to go suck a egg it is ALL his fault I have no sympathy for ham as he is not trying to mitigate problem.

By the way how far from your other consumer electronics does your cell phone cause noise?

Never had any problems with that. My cell phones are 1.9 ghz and no cordless phone around that frequency. I even have a remote mini cell node in my house connect to broadband that give me 5 bars throughout house. I also have a 2.4ghz and a 5 ghz wireless networks as well. No problems and no noise on HF.
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