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Author Topic: The insanity of Paypal  (Read 8011 times)
ZENKI
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 03:12:24 AM »

And every few months there is a new """get of jail free"" statement in the Paypal end user agreement.

I would have more faith in Paypal if they appointed an independent Judge or lawyer that is versed in consumer law and rights. Paypal unfortunately treats consumers like idiots and fools.  I know when I am getting ripped off end of story.

Heres an example. I bought a technical manual that said clearly in the description original  heading ""Original Manual"" I payed a top price for the manual. I get a XEROX copy of the manual.  The description said original copy of manual X. The seller argues with Paypal and  says it says original copy meaning a xerox or reproduction of the original. Nowhere does he mention that its copy, reprinted manual etc etc.

Paypal sides with the sneaky crook and says HIS right! So Paypal thinks its ok for sellers to use sneaky terms to get away with fraud!
Thats why I dont trust Paypal they will bend the truth and bend common language usage of the english language to accommodate crooked  rip off sellers. Every case that I know of that has been to court regarding Paypal and its protection of these crooks, Paypal has lost the case. That says it all, in the eyes of judges and lawyers Paypal is wrong in the decisions  it makes in the favor of sellers who act deceptively. When I see evidence that they really care about preventing consumer rip off's I might consider them again.

When you have monopoly like Ebay and Paypal it generally results in the abuse of their market power. I dont know why  the courts dont force Paypal and Ebay to separate their businesses, they have a clear conflict of interest  in their duty of care towards consumers as monopoly where you forced to use their payment system.

Then lets talk about the Chinese sellers. They advertise a buy it now price for an item. The shipping will be a fixed fee of say 25 dollars. They then list the same item for bid at a low price. Say you win the item at 40 dollars using a auction snipe tool. Then you read the  terms of sale and the postage is 65 dollars. Now you email the seller say, hey I won the item at 40 dollars I want  to pay the 25 dollars via the post office as advertised on your item for 100 dollars. The seller replies, no I cant do that  because item is special and I need to send it via more expensive freight. According to ebay rules this is not charging excessive postage. The item still comes via the post office and will have a 65 dollar shipping cost label on it. It is probably fake and nowhere the real postage charge. Nice rip off of ebay and the buyer.

You find the above scam  on many of the sellers of Rubidium, Thunderbolts GPS clocks and TCXO oscillators. These sellers are clearly profiteering  by applying excuses for the excess postage. Ebay allows this scam! Would you get the postage fees back from paypal, probably never!
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K1XV
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Posts: 69




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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2011, 07:02:29 AM »

In the days of old time radio, there was a show "Amos n Andy", with a scheming central character, "the Kingfish".  On one show, the Kingfish wanted to start a bank that would only allow deposits, and allow no withdrawals.  The selling point was that, by not allowing withdrawals, the depositor would be able to save more money faster.

Somehow, I think "the Kingfish" was somehow involved in the creation of the Paypal system.  They get a cut when you get money in, they take a cut if you want to cash out.  I only use it because sellers want to be paid that way.   When I sell something, I would even prefer a personal check if I know the buyer, or if the buyer is willing to wait a couple of days to let his payment clear.
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NK6Q
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »

OK, for starters I am in no way an employee of PayPal.  I do use PayPal for my online webstore as well as for some of my personal online purchases.  Here's one instance of why PayPal may be beneficial:

About 6 weeks ago I was involved in an Ebay auction for a piece of vintage gear.  The seller described it in good condition and "works as it should".  The auction ended without the minimum being met.  I was very interested in the unit, so I contacted the seller.  We agreed on a price off of Ebay (which should have warned me).  What saved my b*tt is that I stipulated the transaction be made through PayPal.

The unit arrived well packed: a large undamaged carton with plenty of styrofoam peanuts and several layers of bubblewrap surrounding it.  I immediately unpacked the unit and saw right away that it was broken and not in any way operable.  

I tried emailing the seller several times to resolve the issue without getting any response.  Finally, I lodged a complaint with PayPal.  To make a long story short, PayPal reviewed and negotiated the situation and, after I shipped the unit back to the seller, my entire purchase amount was refunded.  

Bottom line: PayPal may allow a buyer some recourse on a purchase if there's a valid problem and an unresolved issue.  Try that with a Postal Money Order and an unscrupulous seller!  As a seller using PayPal, if their 3% ding off my sale price gives my customers some peace of mind, then it's worth it to me.

Bill in Pasadena, NK6Q
older, a little wiser, and a little richer now
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:14:13 PM by NK6Q » Logged
KD5RGJ
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Posts: 32




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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2011, 06:58:04 AM »

I FIND IT AMUSING THAT PEOPLE DO THEIR SHOPPING AT EBAY AND THEN COME TO EHAM TO COMPLAIN.
KD5RGJ
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K1CJS
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2011, 07:08:22 AM »

The answer is simple--DON"T USE E-BAY OR PAYPAL.  There are other auction sites out there.  Use those instead.

I guarantee you one thing--if people stopped using E-bay, closed their accounts, and put their reasons for doing so on the 'survey' form that E-bay requests you fill out, E-bay would sit up and take notice.  The problem is that E-bay was the premier auction site for too long.  If they're shown that they're going to lose out, they'll change their rules.  It's happened before.
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K2OWK
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 12:20:04 PM »

Hello K1CJS, I agree with you there are other auction sites out there, but EBay is the largest by far. If you are looking for something unusual or not available anyware else you can almost always find it on EBay, and at a good price most of the time. If you want to sell something EBay has the largest number of buyers in the world, and if you have a good price on your item you will most likely sell it. I buy and sell on EBay. I do not like EBay's policies and I downright hate PayPal. In the old days when you sold something on EBay you could choose your payment method, BidPay, Western Union, PayPal, Cashiers Check or a personal check which you would hold until it cleared before shipping the item. When EBay acquired PayPal, it all changed. With this monopoly EBay plus PayPal became a singel entity. To use EBay you had to use PayPal. The two merged companies made a fortune on buyers and sellers with most of the profit coming from the latter. I still buy and sell on EBay and use PayPal I have no choice if I want to continue using this site. I don't like, but until the Justice Department investigates this monopoly and breaks it up. The only choice I have is to stop selling and buying on this site with very few sites that are even close to there equivalent. The only advantage that PayPal has is there guarantee of payment and dispute system which also leaves something to be desired.

I am waiting for the day this monopoly is broken up and the sellers and buyers stop getting ripped off.

73s
K2OWK
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W4TQ
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« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 07:04:49 AM »

I used to use eBay a lot.  I would advertise the item with payment by postal money order.  If the winner had a good feedback rating, I would then tell him he could pay with PayPal or personal check. 

When eBay disallowed money orders, I stopped using eBay for selling.  I now use Craigslist, Eham, and QTH.

Dan - W4TQ
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K1CJS
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« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 08:52:55 AM »

Barry,  E-bay may well be the largest by far, but if people stopped selling and buying through them, they would more than likely sit up and take notice.  The fact that people will not stop using them is what keeps them in business.

As indicated in the last post, there are other venues available to the ham enthusiast other than E-bay, and if hams who don't like E-bay would drop hints to the sellers, like a simple note that if their equipment were to be offered on other sites--ham radio sites such as... maybe we could bring about a mini-revolution--as far as ham equipment, that is.

I too have seen things on E-bay that I wanted to buy, but with some patience and some looking on other sites, I have almost always found the item or its equivalent on another site--and cheaper, too.  E-bay has not only got the reputation of being the premiere auction site, it also has the reputation of having some of the highest priced offerings seen anywhere, and of having some of the worst sellers on the planet as well!

73 and good hunting--on sites other than E-PAY!
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KJ4DHI
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 03:39:32 PM »

The whole ebay experience seems like insanity, but truthfully they are slick as a fox. When I want to buy or sell a ham related item, I do it on eham. You hardly ever find someone advertising a rig that he couldn't test because he had no antenna, or no key, or no power supply. Overall, buying or selling on eham has been a real pleasant experience for me.
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WA8MEA
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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 04:29:29 AM »

OK.  If your problem is with PAYPAL and NOT the seller, then pay by CREDIT CARD via PayPal.  Then....if and when you ever have an issue with PayPal....you can file a dispute and charge-back against PayPal.  Sure....PayPal will attempt to pass it off on the buyer/seller.  However, if you clearly point out that the issue is with PayPal, your credit card bank should be more than willing to help.  Just holler: "UNAUTHORIZED CHARGE!"
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K2OWK
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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2011, 12:26:01 PM »

Guess what? PayPal just eliminated the Money Market. No more interest is available on your money in PayPal. They get to keep it all and use it to make money, you now get nothing. What a great place to keep money LOL. Sellers pay them to use PayPal and now get nothing in return. I guess they want it all. I will keep just the smallest amount in my account now and only transfer money as I need it, until they start charging for transfers which I guess with there greed will very soon.

73s
K2OWK
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N4RSS
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2011, 06:29:45 AM »

OK.  If your problem is with PAYPAL and NOT the seller, then pay by CREDIT CARD via PayPal.  Then....if and when you ever have an issue with PayPal....you can file a dispute and charge-back against PayPal.  Sure....PayPal will attempt to pass it off on the buyer/seller.  However, if you clearly point out that the issue is with PayPal, your credit card bank should be more than willing to help.  Just holler: "UNAUTHORIZED CHARGE!"

This.  Never give them access to your bank account.  Never maintain a balance in your paypal account. Use a credit card. 
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PBPP
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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2011, 09:48:00 PM »

I had a PayPal account years ago.  Somehow they slapped me with a $5 charge like an annual fee or something.
Never contested it, just closed my account.

Fast forward 5 or 6 years and I bought something on eBay and unintentionally created a new PayPal account.
Fortunately, the credit card I used expired last year and I haven't renewed my account.

I always ask sellers if they accept a U.S.P.S. Postal Money Order.  If they refuse, I go elsewhere.
Hell, they're going to the Post Office anyway, right?

PayPal - Never EVER again!
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HAMMYGUY
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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2011, 10:44:06 PM »

Over 10 years on Paypal and really no issues.  Maybe I've been lucky.  

A little tidbit, if your wanting to purchase an item but wish to use a credit card.  Paypal will go after your online balance first, then if there isn't enough they will allow you to use your card or transfer from your bank account.  I've sent myself a payment to an email that I own which empties the account, then purchased the item I wanted using my credit card, then recalled the previous payment to restore the online balance.  
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 10:46:01 PM by HAMMYGUY » Logged
AB4D
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2011, 01:26:52 PM »

I've used pay-pal for years as a seller and purchaser, and never had a problem.  I guess I've been lucky thus far, but I am extra careful when selling and purchasing. I have booted bids from my e-bay auctions from folks I thought would be problematic.  I always check feedback on those who bid, and those who have an item I want to bid upon.

I believe I've probably have been lucky by giving honest up front descriptions with lots of photos on my auctions, that keeps down after sale complaints.  I've sold stuff between $10 and $45,000 dollars, and never a hitch.  However, once the money becomes available in my Pay Pal account I transfer it out immediately.   Pay Pal does not need to have my money any longer than necessary.
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