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Author Topic: USB or LSB on CW?  (Read 21306 times)
KB2VWQ
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 07:14:06 AM »

Thank you so much for answering to my question. It cleared my confusion about USB/LSB/CW setting on my Yaesu FT950.
My understanding was that CW doesn't actually use sideband injection, yet the radio has the setting options for CW USB and CW LSB.
I guess if I stick to the widely used USB, I should be OK.

I am sorry if this question caused controversy, however CW manuals and various guides rarely mention about the sideband injections used in CW.
That's why makes this hobby interesting.

Thanks for the info,

73, WT2NY
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KB9TMP
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 08:13:30 AM »

Well I had to check this out on my radios just to see what the fuss was all about. I have a Yaesu FT-817 and a Kenwood TS-450Sat. I set both up on 10 meters at 28.010 MHz and did a little QRP testing. The Yaesu set on CW and the Kenwood also the same both with 800 hz sidetone. They hear each other on the same frequency. Switching the Yaesu to CW-R there is NO CHANGE on either radio with the tone staying the same. Switching the Kenwood to USB I hear the Yaesu exactly 800 hz higher in dial frequency. Now when I switch the Yaesu to CW-R there is NO CHANGE on the Kenwood. I still hear the Yaesu at 800 hz higher on the Kenwood readout.

So the bottom line is just one of preference. Do you want to hear the tone go higher or lower when you scan up in frequency. This isn't worth arguing about.
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2011, 10:22:48 AM »

Thanks for your measurements

Not is said by you,  that the Japanese appliance Y is transmitting CW on 28010 when the scale indicates 28010.

I suppose that is the case, because switching Y CW->CWR during tx did not change frequency of appliance Y.

I suppose the same is true for appliance K.

Because you hear a sidetone of 800 Hz out of K, the  frequency transformed equivalent BFO of K to the RF spectrum has to be 800 Hz lower OR higher than 28010.

Hence the BFO of K is on 28010.8 OR on 28009.2
dependent of the CW/CWR switching of K.

Because the signal must pass through the 2,7 kHz SSB filter
that passes for SSB the audioband 300-3000 Hz  iff
28010 is the frequency of the suppressed carrier,
the filter of K passes probably the RF spectrum
28010.3 through 28013 in USB
and 28009.7-28007 in LSB

Now you say that you switch the K to USB, I suppose that is from the switch position CW/CWR on  K.
Then you have to tune in the scale of K 800 Hz higher, hence on 28010,8 in order to get a 800 Hz sidetone.
The BFO Will in that case be on 28010 and that is correct because in switch position USB or LSB the scale has to be the frequency of the suppressed carrier on 28010.

To remember:

1. You transmit always the suppressed carrier of USB and LSB  or the carrier of  CW/CWR on the scale frequency.

2. In USB and LSB is the BFO on the suppressed carrier frequency.
 
3. In USB is the passband is
scale+300 through scale+3000

In LSB is the passband
scale -300 through scale -3000

4.In CW/CW reverse on reception is the passband
the same as USB of LSB however the BFO is 800 Hz lower of higher than the receives CW and hence 800Hz lower of higher than at SSB.

The advantage of switching is that you can choose 2,2 kHz higher or 2,2 kHz lower of the CW carrier to  omit QRM in one of both, however QRM in the audio beat range 0-800 Hz is the same in CW CWR.

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N2EY
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 02:09:38 PM »

Now I see, that is written here that a Japanese product, that you buy with easy (printed by government) borrowed money because you are not able to design and build something yourself and still you want to be "proud" of your transmitting equipment, which in fact make Japanese engineers proud,  but we are too stupid to recognise such a thing or we are closing our ears and eyes for that, aren't we?

I'm not.

My main HF rig is a homebrew CW transceiver I designed and built  myself. I also have an Elecraft K2 I built from a kit.

Let we say that your transmitter keeps the same tx-frequency when you switch form CW to CW reverse. That is measured in this thread, and also reasonable to expect.

Then you switch over to "receive" Your BFO has then to be 600 Hz or what sidetone you desire, to be off the same receiving frequency as the transmit frequency was. Because it is reasonable to suppose that you receive at just the frequency that you were transmitting and that you are not able to copy Morse Code at zero beat.

When that Rx frequency should be just in the middle of your Rx pass band filter, and by switchting from CW to CW rev it would be kept in the middle, you should not have any advantage of suppressing QRM. It should be the same at  CW and CWR.

Not true. Particularly with a wide (SSB) filter.

Here's why:

Suppose your rig is set up for USB reception and you tune in a station with 600 Hz beat note. Now suppose a station comes on the air 600 Hz higher up the band - you hear the interfereing station as a 1200 Hz beat note.

If you reverse the sideband selection, and the desired station is still a 600 Hz beat note, the interfereing station will be a 0 Hz beat note.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2011, 04:11:44 PM »

Jim,

That is true, and I agree with ur statement, but the unheard QRM at 0 Hz changes then to 1200 Hz.
when the 1200 Hz QRM changes to zero.

You are as home brewer an exception Jim, I estimate that over 99% of hams are appliance operators. It is prohibited by law to make commercials during transmission, and for that reason mentioning the Ikom Jesu and Kenwould appliance typenumbers ought to be unmentioned in a QSO text.

In fact future of ham radio will probably lead to the rejection of at least the technical part of the license examination, together at the same time with designing and construction of  your own equipment making illegal.

Bob


« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 04:17:56 PM by PA0BLAH » Logged
K9IUQ
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Posts: 1738




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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 06:30:12 PM »

I estimate that over 99% of hams are appliance operators.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an "appliance operator". There are many different facets of ham radio.  Building homebrew equipment is only one small facet.

I get tired of hams ridiculing other hams because they do not share their interest in hamradio. Some hams like digital modes, some CW, others hate both. There is satellite operation, ragchewing and just talking to friends on 2 meters. Building, experimenting and modeling antennas is another interesting part of hamming. SDR's are another. Some like to experiment with propagation and use WSPR. Many hams obsess over fighting hordes of hams in a DX pileup, just to get a 2 second 599 TU.   Just talking to each other here on eham is another part of the hobby.

Appliance Operators and no code Hams seem to get more than their fair share of crap from other hams. It is ridiculous.

We all are hams, all with differing interests, it is time to respect one another regardless of what aspect of hamradio interests us....

Stan K9IUQ
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2011, 03:08:21 AM »

I estimate that over 99% of hams are appliance operators.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an "appliance operator". There are many different facets of ham radio.  Building homebrew equipment is only one small facet.

I disagree Stan,
Of course can everybody do what he likes as hobby unless he is interfering with the rights of others. No problem.
And no reason to have no respect. BUT ham radio is a special case. The right to use radio frequencies is established at the ITU due to the service of selfdevelopment. It is a scientific hobby that got the rights to do experiments on RF in order to grow as a person.  
For every grow process there must be a minimum starter condition. When you think you can grow crop in the desert by just waiting you are wrong. The starting conditions are required to make sure that the growing can happen. that are the technical license requirements.

When licensed ham radio is exclusive used the way citizens band is, there will be no reason anymore to legalise ham radio in the way it is, then some technical knowledge as starting point is no longer required , but in that case it will be prohibited to construct your own transmitting equipment. Just as with cars on the public roads. It is prohibited to build your own car and drive on the public roads with it.

Quote
I get tired of hams ridiculing other hams because they do not share their interest in hamradio.

I  hope you see the difference, and you are making yourself tired because I make myself tired about what has happened.
I do not ridiculing other people because of their interest and hobby, I only worry abt losing the rights hams deserved in the past.

Quote
We all are hams, all with differing interests, it is time to respect one another regardless of what aspect of hamradio interests us....

Stan K9IUQ

In general I agree, however, honestly, sometimes I do find it very difficult, and well when I see persons in public places, completely unknown to me that show a body volume that proofs that they have some very rare disease OR that the are so willingless and eat like pigs.
When I take a plane, it happens that they need more space than reserved by buying a ticket and they use part of mine.

So I see many hams (also recently on this forum) asking advice how to learn CW, and look at lcwo.net. there you will find that 99% start the course and stop after some lessons. They never finish because they have no willpower to perform their own plans, just as the guys and galls without a rare disease plan to stop eating 3 times the amount they need and can't stop.
"To keep up with the Jones " is an American proverb, isn't it? I always think at it when I see the learning CW planners start with buying an expensive  set of paddles.  

Bob
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 03:56:07 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
K7KBN
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Posts: 2801




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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2011, 08:56:12 AM »

Problem with being an appliance operator is very much the same as being a 16-year old with a nice car but with no knowledge of what the gauges and warning lights mean, not knowing how to check the oil level or the coolant level.  His car stops running and he has no clue what the problem is, nor any desire to find out.

You certainly don't need to be an automotive engineer to perform regular maintenance on a car, and you don't need to be an electronics engineer to do the same stuff with a radio.  You DO need some initiative, though, and that's sadly lacking in many new hams - the ones with the 2x1 call signs who can't be bothered to look through the manuals for their rigs to figure out what is supposed to be connected where, or how.
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73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
PA0BLAH
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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2011, 09:17:45 AM »



You certainly don't need to be an automotive engineer to perform regular maintenance on a car, and you don't need to be an electronics engineer to do the same stuff with a radio.  You DO need some initiative, though, and that's sadly lacking in many new hams - the ones with the 2x1 call signs who can't be bothered to look through the manuals for their rigs to figure out what is supposed to be connected where, or how.

Right, there is an essential difference between design and repair, it is even so that when you study the schematic diagram you can learn a lot, especially of the design of measuring instruments.

Concerning manuals: When I was in primary school it was strictly forbidden to "read" stories in strip form. That was because it retarded the learning of reading, I suppose. But nowadays when I buy a new device  a camera or whatever it is accompanied with a voluminous book, with the user instructions in 35 different languages. And in order to save on that they started with strip stories, only pictures, that I can not or very difficult  understand. So I blame my educators that refused me the strip stories.

Bob
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VE7BGP
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« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2011, 11:15:52 AM »

Hello Tom
Are you referring to a General Coverage Receiver or a transceiver in your Question. On Transceivers It is more up to the Engineer who designed that particular transceiver what sideband the receiver listens to when you the user selects CW mode on your Mode Switch. Most older Icom radios listen to cw on the LSB injection from the BFO. Most older Yaesu & Kenwood radios use USB Injection. Older Ten Tec received cw in the same sideband as is normal for SSB Phone for the particular band LSB on 80 & 40 and USB on 20 thru 10.  Some radios use a separate crystal for CW mode for the CW Carrier Generator & BFO injection the Heath SB-HW series tube rigs are one example of this. Most newer transceivers have the a choice of CWR Reverse mode choice for receiving CW. This helps with QRM fighting & checking into Phone Nets on CW by choosing sidebands on CW. The only place you need to be concerned which Sideband you receive CW on is in Checking into a SSB Phone net on CW or a Both mode Net. The IC-751A is one of the only rigs I can think of that has push button Automatic offset mode switching between LSB & CW you hear SSB properly in the CW mode and your offset is correct for Phone Stations to copy your CW as long as you do not select a narrow CW filter. on any Transceiver you can listen to CW in either the LSB & USB modes or CW Mode. You still hear CW for reading the mail.  One more point it is only called the BFO on CW Mode in SSB it is the Carrier Reinsertion  Oscillator. There were a few old tube type transceivers that CW was an afterthought and had no CW Mode CW was just received in sideband mode and keyed with a tone for sending with VOX The British KW-2000 series one example. I hope that helps Tom
73
Gerry VE7BGP
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K9IUQ
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2011, 02:22:11 PM »

Problem with being an appliance operator is very much the same as being a 16-year old with a nice car but with no knowledge of what the gauges and warning lights mean, not knowing how to check the oil level or the coolant level.  His car stops running and he has no clue what the problem is, nor any desire to find out.

All he needs to know is the cell # of the mechanic.

My wife knows nothing about a car, yet she drives better than I do. She is smarter enough to know if a warning light sounds, to get help from someone.

I do not change my own oil or do any maintenance on my own vehicles.  I have no desire to learn about the inner workings of the modern automobile. I can assure you this does not affect my ability to drive the car. Not at all.

The same pertains to Ham radio equipment. I do not need to know how to fix or modify or repair my radios. I can assure you this does not affect my ability to operate the radio properly.

This is what rankles some hams. It does not take any special ability to operate a modern ham radio.

The FCC in the USA has certainly recognized this. It is one of the reasons the ham tests have been dumbed down and made easier. Even the Extra test can be passed by anyone with a little memorizing.

Some hams want you to believe it takes some special ability to operate and maintain a ham radio. Ham radio is no longer special. It is becoming CB radio on steroids.

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 02:23:58 PM by K9IUQ » Logged
PA0BLAH
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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2011, 03:46:36 PM »

K9IUQ

Stan

That is exactly what I mean.
99% is appliance operator, FCC can lower the requirements and the next step is that it will be prohibited by law to build your own equipment and start transmitting with it, Just as it is prohibited to build your own car and start driving on public highways.

This is the result of 99+  % being appliance operators, that I am prescribed to respect.

Ad hoc definition: An appliance operator is a licensed ham, that uses only commercial available equipment and is not interested in electronics and other techniques at all, even the very first start of home brewing: assembling a kit with predrilled painted cabinet and printed circuit boards with a heathkit alike manual,  failure virtual impossible, does not interest him at all.

And O yes, concerning the ability to operate: When you work a CW ham you work a guy that just not meets your easy definition, but a guy that has the character to invest time to copy that, and he meets only guys that did that also, running a bug the right way sets any CW getter out of business.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 03:56:44 PM by PA0BLAH » Logged
N2EY
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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 06:01:52 PM »

99% is appliance operator, FCC can lower the requirements and the next step is that it will be prohibited by law to build your own equipment and start transmitting with it, Just as it is prohibited to build your own car and start driving on public highways.

I don't know that "99%" of hams are "appliance operators". The mere fact that most hams use manufactured gear doesn't mean they know nothing of how it works.

There are lots of hams who restore and use older gear. There are lots of hams who build kits. There are lots who build from scratch.

In the beginning, hams homebrewed because there was no other choice; nobody made manufactured gear.

When manufactured gear first appeared, it was very expensive and the selection was limited. And the technology changed very fast (compare a 1920 amateur station to a 1930 amateur station - very little from the former could be used in the latter). So most hams continued to homebrew.

But as the technology matured and became more complex, and manufactured stuff became more varied and less expensive, more and more hams bought their gear. First receivers, then transmitters.

After WW2, surplus, kits, TVI, ssb, transceivers and prosperity made a big dent in homebrewing from scratch, too.

Most of all there was the economics. Homebrewing from new parts became more expensive than buying kit and manufactured stuff, and the resale value of homebrew was far less.

None of this is new. It was true 50+ years ago, at least here in the USA.

The main reasons for homebrewing today are:

1) What you want just isn't available manufactured.
2) You have a parts source that is well below new-parts cost.
3) You want a unique experience.

And that's about it.

btw, it is not prohibited to build your own car and use it on the highway IF it meets inspection requirements. Just look at all the custom cars on the road.


running a bug the right way sets any CW getter out of business.
I disagree. I've been using a bug for more than 36 years, and my goal has always been to send as perfect code as possible. And one of the tests of good sending is how well a machine can decode it.
73 de Jim, N2EY
[/quo
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K7KBN
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 07:17:13 PM »

I do not change my own oil or do any maintenance on my own vehicles.

Nor do I.  However, I DO check the oil level frequently between changes.  Once that indicator light comes on, it's too late.  Same with engine coolant, brake fluid, etc.  Doing this makes the difference between a $50 visit to the little shop or a $5000 visit to a larger one.
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73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
PA0BLAH
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 02:16:18 AM »


I don't know that "99%" of hams are "appliance operators". The mere fact that most hams use manufactured gear doesn't mean they know nothing of how it works.

Every licensed ham is required to pass an examination about circuits, parts, and basic electronic laws of network theory, and EM field, modulation theory, transmission lines, harmonics, and digital electronics ADC DAC convolution, FFT, FIR and IRFiltering.


I gave an ad hoc definition, the way I personally see an appliance operator, it is only an operator like a CB user.

Quote
Ad hoc definition: An appliance operator is a licensed ham, that uses only commercial available equipment and is not interested in electronics and other techniques at all, even the very first start of home brewing: assembling a kit with predrilled painted cabinet and printed circuit boards with a heathkit alike manual,  failure virtual impossible, does not interest him at all.

I think a human being has  internal drives, most basic like sexuality, others of higher order like creativity.

So building equipment is a form of creativity, just as a painter can hardly sell some work, the ham is not interested at all in the cost of creation wether or not  higher than buying some canvas poster made by the million.

So are people buying expensive musical instruments in order to replay after long study original compositions and make their own compositions, while it is much cheaper and easier to buy a CD of a well known orchestra.

Quote
There are lots who build from scratch.

My estimation is that it are  just about the same amount as in 1946 - 1950 period. The grow in ham population is just by the guys buying the Cd's instead of the musical instruments. The ham population as defined by the amateur service in the ITU is still about the same.

A ham in the neighbourhood here, said to me "I build only what I cannot buy because it is not commercial available" But when you don't build what you can buy you are not able to build equipment that is not commercially available. "O yes", he said, ""but then I don't want to have it." So you have to re invent the wheel first when you want to go over scarily walked paths.

Quote
running a bug the right way sets any CW getter out of business.
I disagree. I've been using a bug for more than 36 years, and my goal has always been to send as perfect code as possible. And one of the tests of good sending is how well a machine can decode it.
73 de Jim, N2EY

Perfect, you can use a keyboard and nobody can detect any difference.  I agree that talking abt myself, QRQ requires it, just as fast reading a handwritten letter is nearly impossible. But  the bug gives you, at moderate speed,   the opportunity to make perfect readable code that has a recognisable fist.

Just as a lot of chess players will play with other people and not with a computer,

BTW I am sorry, I spell check but things as loosing or losing choosing and chosing, are not mastered here, English is not my native language. So there abslutely will be errors in grammar left. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 02:36:15 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
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