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Author Topic: Respecting Other Hams  (Read 6081 times)
K9IUQ
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Posts: 2078




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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2011, 06:33:58 PM »


I wonder why that you think it applies to all online forums.  Some forums--like E-ham--do frown on doing it,

If you politicize like some hams try to do here on eham, your posts can and will be deleted. IMO there is no excuse for posting your political views here on eham. This is a ham forum. I and most others here come for ham radio discussion, hopefully in a civil manner.

Politics has NO place here.

Politics is ripping the USA apart, why do the same to eham.net?

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 06:54:08 PM by K9IUQ » Logged
K9IUQ
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Posts: 2078




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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2011, 06:49:09 PM »

It is not a rule - but a guideline.  

It is just plain common sense and courtesy to our fellow hams. Discussing Politics anywhere (but especially online or on air) is going to cause arguments and bad feelings, rancor and hatred, no matter what your convictions are. So why do some hams continue to do it?

The links you provided were excellent.


Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 06:57:56 PM by K9IUQ » Logged
TKENDALL
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Posts: 21




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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2011, 07:38:41 PM »

I agree with Stan.

I think there is a very important concept that has been lost here:

Ham Radio is a hobby. It is not a career. I'm all for learning
as much as possible about the hobby and the theory behind it,
but some folks feel that a new ham should take the time to
learn and understand how to build their own equipment, know and
apply all the formulas, and know code inside and out.

There is nothing wrong with this at all, but some of these
folks feel that if you don't do it this way, you have done a
terrible disservice to yourself and the hobby.

It has been my observation over the years that Hams that have super duper setups, like those with fancy audio processing equipment, tower farms, huge arrays, amps, and those who have spent thousands of dollars on Ham gear tend to be more stressed out and irritable because they are missing those two states for WAS, or that rare contact on the other side of the globe, or just can't get their SWR perfect, etc.

Then there are those that make the wife and kids move out of
the house and relocate because they absolutely need a better
location to operate 40m CW.

On the other hand, most of the Hams that I have met would be
classified as "appliance operators", they enjoy radio and just
want to grab a couple 2m HTs and chat with each other on the
other side of town. No contesting, advanced theory, amps, or
other stuff needed to have a good time. The best part about it
is that these guys are having a ball with their "dumbed down"
little radios.

Someone made a comment once that you can take two people that are motorcyclists - one who rides a brand new Harley and the other that rides a beat up twenty year old bike. In many situations like these the guy with the old bike has a blast riding it
while the guy with the new Harley is always complaning that his
seat doesn't fit quite right, or the grips are a bit tough, or
worries about getting chips in his paint after riding. Who is
having a better time here?

Sometimes less is more. You SHOULD be able to work with
minimal equipment/resources in any hobby and still have a good
time, as long as you are passionate about it. There are those
in Ham Radio that treat it as a career with competition, and that should not be
the case.

"Also IMO Political views have NO place here on eham. This is a
Ham Forum. If you feel a need to discuss Politics, go to a
website where these discussions are welcome. I do not need to
hear your views that you are Democrat, Republican, or
whatever."

Couldn't agree more. It is always amazing to see a thread get
started on some Ham topic, to find three or four pages later
people talking about the Government, Obama, Global Warming or
other Political nonsense. Keep the Political views to yourself
or post them on Political forums.

By looking at things from your viewpoint, it is not just about
"99% of Hams being Appliance Operators", it's about lazy fat
people overeating, etc. I'm sure in your eyes it is also about
the Government, or is Obama's fault, etc.

"Your reply illustrates why so many new hams today get disgusted with the hobby."

Couldn't have been said better Stan. I think the callsign speaks for itself.

73
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WB6DGN
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Posts: 619




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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2011, 12:32:13 AM »

Quote
When I started ham radio in 1960 I was pretty stupid too, even tho I was 14 yrs old and thought I knew everything.  Cheesy I asked many stupid ham questions but back then there was no internet. There was not the rancor and "chip on the shoulder attitude" and hatred we see so much of here on eham.
In 1960 hams helped each other, it was a given. No one made fun of me because I was a new Novice. There was no disrespect. Hams went out of their way to help new hams. I was actually welcomed into ham radio by other hams.

You must have lived in another world than I did.  In my experience NOTHING has changed.  Hams were just as nasty and egocentric then as they are now.  I was "AWARDED" the phonetics " DOG GONE NUISANCE" as a "reward" for my eagerness to learn on the local repeater (1962) and when I proudly showed off my work in changing a can type electrolytic capacitor in a radio I was repairing (I was an EE student at the time) I was REWARDED with the comment, "what does it matter, as long as it works...".  I didn't let that sarcasm discourage me in that, all my career, I always did the neatest work that I could, but I NEVER AGAIN showed my work to another person.  So, NOTHING HAS CHANGED, in my opinion.  Hams were jealous then; hams are jealous now.  And, as one fellow states on another board as part of his signature: FLAMES = JEALOUSY.  So, so true.
Tom WB6DGN

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K9IUQ
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Posts: 2078




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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2011, 05:32:21 AM »


You must have lived in another world than I did. 
 
for my eagerness to learn on the local repeater (1962)

I did. We did not have repeaters and FM until the 1970's. In 1962 few hams even had Benton Harbor (2mtr) Lunchboxes (AM)..  Wink

Stan K9IUQ
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N2EY
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Posts: 3925




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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2011, 05:50:38 AM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an "appliance operator". There are many different facets of ham radio.  Building homebrew equipment is only one small facet.

I get tired of hams ridiculing other hams because they do not share their interest in hamradio.

I agree that there is no point in ridiculing someone who doesn't share exactly the same interest. Nor is there any problem with someone who only uses manufactured gear.

But there *is* a problem with someone who just doesn't care. That goes against the very Basis and Purpose of amateur radio.

Another we need to do here on eham is to respect the right of another ham to have an opinion different than yours. There is no need to constantly argue about differing opinions.

Not all opinions are created equal. An opinion based on faulty reasoning or false "facts" should be debunked for what it is. An opinion based on sound logic and verified facts is worthy of respect.

Certainly we do not need to call each other names or attempt to ridicule a poster.

Agree 100%. But that works both ways.

Also IMO Political views have NO place here on eham. This is a Ham Forum. If you feel a need to discuss Politics, go to a website where these discussions are welcome. I do not need to hear your views that you are Democrat, Republican, or whatever.

I agree in general terms. But a lot of things that need to be discussed ARE political in nature.

For example, a lot of hams (including myself) think FCC should do more monitoring and stricter enforcement of the rules. They do a lot now but IMHO it's not enough.

The problem is that expanded enforcement costs serious money, and FCC's resources for amateur radio are finite. This situation isn't new, it goes back more then 30 years. It used to be even worse, until ARRL's constant requests got us Riley Hollingsworth and now Ms. Laura Smith. But they can only do so much with the available resources.

Getting more enforcement and more funding in a time of widespread budget tightening was and is a political issue. And it needs to be discussed in that context.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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W3LK
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Posts: 5639




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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2011, 08:16:39 AM »

Please show me the location of this "rule". I hear this often said but have never been able to find any such rule in print, certainly not in Part 97.

It is not a rule - but a guideline.  One such place you can read it is here:

That's right; it is a GUIDLINE. there is NO RULE against discussing religion, sex OR politics. That's the point I was making.
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A smoking section in a restaurant makes as much sense as a peeing section in a swimming pool.
MAGNUM257
Member

Posts: 159




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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2011, 08:37:05 AM »

Please show me the location of this "rule". I hear this often said but have never been able to find any such rule in print, certainly not in Part 97.

It is not a rule - but a guideline.  One such place you can read it is here:

That's right; it is a GUIDLINE. there is NO RULE against discussing religion, sex OR politics. That's the point I was making.

These are subjects best kept for the dinner table, not radio.
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AK4KZ
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Posts: 84


WWW

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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2011, 09:33:43 AM »

You must have lived in another world than I did.  In my experience NOTHING has changed.  Hams were just as nasty and egocentric then as they are now.  I was "AWARDED" the phonetics " DOG GONE NUISANCE" as a "reward" for my eagerness to learn on the local repeater (1962) and when I proudly showed off my work in changing a can type electrolytic capacitor in a radio I was repairing (I was an EE student at the time) I was REWARDED with the comment, "what does it matter, as long as it works...".

LOL... yup.. that sounds like some of the operators I've heard. But I think you just nailed the human condition. And if I were to be honest with myself.. sometimes I resemble that remark. Just ask anyone in my family. (I don't even need a radio to offend them)  Wink

On the other hand, the majority of people I've run into on the radio have been great. Most of the noise seems to happen on the internet, it seems.


As far as the rest of the conversation...

I may have my Extra ticket but I'm an appliance operator and aware that I'm still a functional novice. I don't know if the majority of people build their own rigs anymore. Kind of tough to keep up with Japanese manufacturing with my 25w soldering iron in the garage. Part of me would love to build a crystal radio and operate from it. Maybe someday. Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to improve my antenna, how to actually operate better and more comfortably and where there's a need for better digital software and utilities (not to mention figuring out which format is my favorite). I'm hoping that I can find a place to use my other skills to make the hobby a little more functional and leaving it better than I found it.

I'm an appliance operator but I'm relearning Morse code even though there's no requirement on me to do so. (Yeah, I'm a no-code, slightly BALDING, appliance operator.) But I was an appliance operator when I made all 13 colonies in the recent event. Probably not a big deal for most of the big guns out there, hut with my 75 or so watts and a little determination, it was great fun. And that, my friends, is the one aspect that draws most people to get into the game, regardless of their particular favorite "flavor" of ham radio.

Politics and religion? One may disagree with me and that's okay. (We can still be friends). Personally, I like a good discussion about either subject. I find that the key is having a little sensitivity to your "audience" (including the ones that aren't actively in the conversation) and having a little grace toward those who may not agree with me. Not really much different than face to face. Now, I don't think I need to jump into a group I've never listened to and start "preaching" about politics or religion. I mean, if things that may offend someone become too taboo to even talk about then the airwaves should be pretty empty pretty soon.

I just try and remember all those things my mother taught me about how to speak to people when it comes to opening my mouth. When it comes to listening, in general, I've found the ham community a pretty decent bunch... except that one guy that keeps tuning up on frequency. You know who you are.  Wink Cheesy

73,
Chris
AK4KZ
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 09:37:40 AM by AK4KZ » Logged
K8AXW
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Posts: 4001




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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2011, 10:04:22 AM »


Labelling someone as an appliance operator is effectively saying we label them as technically naive, and by extension we are are an expert.

IMHO, this statement is incorrect!  An appliance operator, by definition, is one who buys his commercial radio, antenna and accessories and connects them together and then simply operates.  They, as a rule, are not "technically naive" but technically inept.  This is because there is no interest in learning anything about their equipment, it's proper use and what to do if something doesn't work as advertised.  Quite often the "appliance operator" looks down HIS nose at anyone who uses inexpensive gear, builds, uses, or even talks about homebrew gear and or boat anchors. 

These are also the same operators who get on eHam.com and ask questions that could have been answered by simply looking it up in a book which they should have or researching it on the Internet, which they are too lazy to do.  They rely on others to solve their simplest problems.


So lets drop the labelling, and consider that we are all on a journey, where one time we all had to sit in the newbies seat.

I agree completely with this statement. If a guy wants to be an appliance operator, so be it.  If a guy wants to be an electronics nerd, so be it.  There's room for all of us and we can no doubt learn something from each other.

However, I have to reiterate, it's time the appliance operators and newbies start putting forth an effort to solve their own simple problems caused by the very basic lack of electronics knowledge.  Knowledge that they are expected to have. Then, if you still don't know or don't understand, ask your question.

73s.
 

And yes, you will get "answers" here on eHam that are incorrect.  The answer was no doubt given in good faith and if it's incorrect, you can bet it will be corrected.  Just stay with the thread and you will get the information you seek.

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K8AXW
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Posts: 4001




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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2011, 10:09:50 AM »

4KZ:  You simply don't understand the term "appliance operator!"  You don't fit the profile!!
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AB0RE
Member

Posts: 293




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« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2011, 06:16:55 PM »

In my experience, an "Appliance Operator" is one who doesn't RTFM ("Read the F...riendly Manual") because they are too lazy.  Instead of spending an hour or two with the manual they simply get online and post questions, expecting the answers from others.  And yes, there IS a problem with that.  And the internet is chock-full of mis-information, which further contributes to their Appliance Operator tendacies.

Many hams in my local area have no clue how to program their radio, nor do they even understand the difference between PL-Encode and CTCSS.  It makes for a poor operator and it's rather embarassing when these hams show up to public service events and/or ARES-activations and don't have the basic skills necessary to communicate.  If you're too lazy to spend a little time with the manual do us all a favor and just settle for an i-Phone.
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MAGNUM257
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Posts: 159




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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2011, 06:10:21 PM »

Many hams in my local area have no clue how to program their radio, nor do they even understand the difference between PL-Encode and CTCSS.  It makes for a poor operator and it's rather embarassing when these hams show up to public service events and/or ARES-activations and don't have the basic skills necessary to communicate.  If you're too lazy to spend a little time with the manual do us all a favor and just settle for an i-Phone.

That's where FRIENDLY comes in...something lacking today from many HAMS. This post is just one example.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Amateur's Code
by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA (1928)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Radio Amateur is:
CONSIDERATE never knowingly operating in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others.
 
LOYAL offering loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local clubs and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in the United States is represented nationally and internationally.
 
PROGRESSIVE with knowledge abreast of science, a well built and efficient station, and operation beyond reproach.
 
FRIENDLY with slow and patient operation when requested, friendly advice and counsel to the beginner, kindly assistance, co-operation and consideration for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.
 
BALANCED Radio is an avocation, never interfering with duties owed to family, job, school or community.
 
PATRIOTIC with station and skill always ready for service to country and community
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AB0RE
Member

Posts: 293




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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2011, 06:58:33 PM »

"Magnum",

That's where FRIENDLY comes in...something lacking today from many HAMS. This post is just one example.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Amateur's Code
by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA (1928)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point exactly...  Let me elaborate:

The Radio Amateur is:
CONSIDERATE never knowingly operating in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others.    << Unfortunately, operators who are deliberately ignorant "lessen the pleasure of others", over a geographic range spanning thousands of miles because RF has a tendacy to propogate well sometimes. >>

PROGRESSIVE with knowledge abreast of science, a well built and efficient station, and operation beyond reproach.   << No need to even comment on this one.  Again, the deliberately ignorant operator comes nowhere near this definition.  >>
 
PATRIOTIC with station and skill always ready for service to country and community << Again, the deliberately ignorant operator is NEVER ready with the skills ready to service his country and community.  In fact, they do a disservice to their communities by creating a false sense of hope that they can actually be of use. >>

I'm not saying we shouldn't be friendly.... and I've done more than my fair share at pointing newbies in the right direction in a patient, friendly manner. I'm simply it's up to EACH individual operator, especially the more-seasoned operators, to try to increase their technical understanding.   

It's ironic that you quote an "Amateur's Code" from 1928, 83 years ago... when people had to make their own stations and HAD to be technically-inclined to get on the air.  We don't live in that era anymore.  The Amateurs Code was probably written based on the assumption that hams had a core set of knowledge already.  There's simply no excuse for hams who refuse to read up on their radios, whether they're judged by 83 year old standards or today's standards.
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AE5JU
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Posts: 236




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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2011, 05:51:41 PM »


(trimmed)

 Another we need to do here on eham is to respect the right of another ham to have an opinion different than yours. There is no need to constantly argue about differing opinions. Certainly we do not need to call each other names or attempt to ridicule a poster.

(trimmed)

Stan K9IUQ



Awww, where's the fun in that?    Cheesy
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