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Author Topic: 8 ft vs. 10 ft ground rod ?  (Read 9311 times)
BOOTYMONSTER
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« on: August 26, 2011, 12:43:38 AM »

i have a local place where i can get 10 ft copper clad ground rods .

http://www.3starinc.com/58_x_10_foot_ground_rod_copper_clad.html

is there any benefit to having a 10 footer 9 to 9 1/2 ft in the ground vs. a 8 footer 7 to 7 1/2 ft in the ground ?
ill be using a 6 inch wide by 2 ft copper strip/sheet to connect the ground rod to the the base of the mast .

thanks .
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K1CJS
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 04:34:11 AM »

I'm not sure if the NEC mandates having a full eight feet of ground rod actually in the ground, but some local codes do.  Also, sometimes that extra two feet means the difference between having the rod end in good moist soil rather than not.

All in all, that extra two feet won't hurt anything and could well be in your favor--in more ways than one.  Get the ten footers. 
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W5LZ
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 06:27:35 AM »

8 versus 10 foot ground rods?  No practical differences at all.  Of course, it depends on the conductivity of the dirt.  All things considered, a single ground rod isn't very effective as a safety ground OR an RF ground.  For RF purposes, you'd be better off just burying the thing an inch or two rather than driving it 8 - 10 feet into the ground.
 - 'Doc
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K9KJM
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 10:39:33 PM »

In most cases there will be very little difference between an 8 foot deep rod and a 10 foot deep rod. BUT if your soil conditions were such that at say 9 feet you suddenly got into nice moist soil, Or a water table, It COULD make a difference.

Most places have difficulty driving 10 foot rods because of rocks, etc, And just have to use more rods that are shorter.

Remember, Ground rods are good for DC ground for safety and lightning protection grounding.    For RF ground, Wires and strap right near the surface in a counterpoise fashion is what is needed.
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BOOTYMONSTER
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2011, 10:09:11 AM »

thanks folks Wink
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W8JI
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2011, 06:59:53 AM »

thanks folks Wink

So long as you know this will not help the signal or RF performance, and understand a ground rod is totally inadequate for lightning protection, then you are all set.  :-)

Why the very large copper flashing? I'm a little surprised no one asked about it.

The RF resistance of that ground rod, even if it hits wet soil, will be dozens of ohms. If it is four feet deep or 40 feet deep, it will be the same resistance at 27 MHz. For lighting it will be may ohms also. So why the extra wide flashing when a piece of number 8 copper would work the same?
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KD4LLA
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2011, 01:47:48 PM »

I don't understand why a person would even ask such a question here.  A simple "search" here on eHam will provide you with hours of ideas or entertainment on "grounding".

Mike
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K2FOX
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 11:31:33 AM »

I don't understand why a person would even ask such a question here.  A simple "search" here on eHam will provide you with hours of ideas or entertainment on "grounding".

Mike

Really. I mean why would a HAM ask a fellow HAM for help,?

What nerve!!
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W8JI
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 03:24:42 PM »

I don't understand why a person would even ask such a question here.  A simple "search" here on eHam will provide you with hours of ideas or entertainment on "grounding".

Mike

Really. I mean why would a HAM ask a fellow HAM for help,?

What nerve!!


Booty Monster is not a Ham. He is a CB operator.

However, with a handle like booty monster he (or she) is widely known as someone to never get on the bad side of.
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MAGNUM257
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 04:28:37 PM »

I don't understand why a person would even ask such a question here.  A simple "search" here on eHam will provide you with hours of ideas or entertainment on "grounding".

Mike

Really. I mean why would a HAM ask a fellow HAM for help,?

What nerve!!


Booty Monster is not a Ham. He is a CB operator.

However, with a handle like booty monster he (or she) is widely known as someone to never get on the bad side of.

HAM or CB, it was a valid question and did not deserve that sort of response.

Remember the Amatuers Code...
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AD4U
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 06:12:46 AM »

I can't think of ANY situation where an 8 foot long ground rod would be better than a 10 footer.  So if you can properly install a 10 footer, go for it.  

The local power company recently did just that at my house.  I had many lightning issues in the past couple of years.  The local power company spent two days installing deep (20-40 foot long) ground rods at each power pole on the mile long primary service that feeds my house.  I am at the end of the service and I am the only house on it.  This service runs through open fields and just begs for lightning to hit it.  They also installed a lighting arrestor on each pole.  

When they finished they installed multiple 8 foot ground rods about 8 feet apart near my electric meter.  All the ground rods at my house were cadwelded together with #4 solid copper wire.

FWIW I dug a "doughnut" around the top of each ground rod.  (google chemical grounds) Every month or so I pour some Epson Salts (magnesium sulfate) crystals in each doughnut and water them in.  The soil in my area (like in most areas) is a poor conductor.   IMO this increases soil conductivity around each ground rod.  Epson salts is not corrosive like table salt and it evern acts to green up shrubbery.  Whether Epson salts helps or not, it definitely does not hurt anything and Epson Salts is cheap.

To check what I am saying test the resistance of a glass of tap water with your VOM.  It will read almost infinity.  Stir in some Epson salts and test again.  The water now shows a relatively low resistance.  IMO (over time) adding Epson salts around a ground rod will result in a similar increase in soil conductivity.

Dick  AD4U
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 02:53:42 PM by AD4U » Logged
N2EY
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 01:54:16 PM »

I don't understand why a person would even ask such a question here.  A simple "search" here on eHam will provide you with hours of ideas or entertainment on "grounding".

You answered your own question.

Asking the question is easier than searching through the info.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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BOOTYMONSTER
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 07:29:01 PM »

LMAO !!

"However, with a handle like booty monster he (or she) is widely known as someone to never get on the bad side of."

would it be better if i was known as someone that can be kicked around like a scared dog ? and what does my handle have to do with it ?

to those that feel i did something wrong by asking questions that have already been answered in other threads here ......
i suspect that pretty much every question has been answered here at some point or another . maybe the whole forum should be locked down so that no repeat questions can be asked HuhHuh
...... but then some of the folks that feel the need to elevate their self worth putting down someone who doesn't use the same frequencies they do or know as much as they do about the radio hobby will have to go somewhere else to stroke their egos Sad .

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/DXCC/Eth-operating-EN-ARRL-CORR-JAN-2011.pdf

one of the amateur radio codes of conduct is ......

"FRIENDLY
Slow and patient operating when requested; friendly advice and counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit."

and ill add ..... nobody is obligated to answer or reply to any thread/question on any forum . to those that do and offer on topic help and constructive criticism thank you . to those that only reply to complain about a question being asked or attempt to put me down because i'm just a (PROUD) chicken bander ........ maybe those folks need to look inside their self and honestly ask their self if their behavior is truly an example of "the hallmarks of the amateur spirit."

W8JI , the copper flashing idea was because i can get some for free and i was thinking it might carry more current due to the surface area . but i see from yours and other replies and links folks gave to many many articles you (and others) have written that one ground rod is better than nothing , but more is needed to be somewhat effective . ultimately disconnecting the coax is the only way to truly protect the electronics , and the more properly installed ground rods i use the more likely the survive-ability of my antenna .

AD4U , thank you to . i made a salt water dummy load . i was of the impression that salt on the ground/dirt or in a ground rod hole did not saturate enough area to have any real effect unless you use truck loads of it over a significant area .... but i will give it another look . i certainly dont know it all and my ego is comfortable admitting that , it also has enough humility to not feel humiliated when i'm wrong of find out i don't understand something as well as i thought i did .


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W8JI
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 05:44:40 AM »

I don't understand why a person would even ask such a question here.  A simple "search" here on eHam will provide you with hours of ideas or entertainment on "grounding".

Mike

Really. I mean why would a HAM ask a fellow HAM for help,?

What nerve!!


Booty Monster is not a Ham. He is a CB operator.

However, with a handle like booty monster he (or she) is widely known as someone to never get on the bad side of.

HAM or CB, it was a valid question and did not deserve that sort of response.

Remember the Amatuers Code...

Why on earth would you or anyone assume I was picking on him (her)?

Who could not love someone named "booty monster". The only more widely loved and respected monster is the world-wide most famous cookie monster, but that is a G rated blue monster..... not a blue rated G monster.
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W8JI
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 05:52:02 AM »

LMAO !!

At least someone has a partial sense of humor around here. People take booty way too serious.

Quote
W8JI , the copper flashing idea was because i can get some for free and i was thinking it might carry more current due to the surface area . but i see from yours and other replies and links folks gave to many many articles you (and others) have written that one ground rod is better than nothing , but more is needed to be somewhat effective . ultimately disconnecting the coax is the only way to truly protect the electronics , and the more properly installed ground rods i use the more likely the survive-ability of my antenna .


No, that is not quite it. It is the BONDING from the ground rod to the power mains entrance ground that does all the safety for your gear if the tower is near the house, or if this is an entrance ground. Adding a ground rod or even a few ground rods is almost like doing nothing. It makes you feel good, but it isn't going to do very much. Nearly all of protection is in the bonding of the mains entrance to things entering the house, on the house, or next to the house.

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