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Author Topic: Beware of upcoming Windows 8  (Read 17840 times)
AA6YQ
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« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2011, 03:09:45 PM »

If Android doesn't support multitasking, as you claim with zero evidence, how do you explain the fact that my phone running Android 2.3 can simultaneously update my moving position on a map, display my RSS feeds, sync my calender, and take a picture?

Those are all cooperative tasks.

Yes, there is a difference between cooperative multitasking and pre-emptive multitasking. But you didn't say "Android doesn't support pre-emptive multitasking", you said "Android doesn't support multitasking" - as any reader can easily verify. Your statement is false.

Torvalds began working on Linux in 1991. OS2 development began in 1985, and was first released in 1987 - a full 4 years before Linux development first started. OS/2 was not based on Linux, as you claim above.

There was two developments of OS2. First it was a joint action with MS. They then split and IBM went it alone. If you had ever used OS2 as I have in past you would know that command line queries and response are very Linux like. Bases of it or copied/followed some of its structure it has a link to Linux

OS2 was influenced by Unix. Linux, which was developed after OS2, was also influenced by Unix. As a result, there are similarities between OS2 and Linux. However, since the development of Linux started years after OS2 was already released, OS2 cannot possibly have based on Linux as you claim. Once again, you have taken an empirical observation - "OS2 and Linux have similarities in their command lines" and jumped to a completely incorrect conclusion.

WIN8 is a new OS for MS and it is focused on Tablets. MS (un like you) realizes that tablet will take over for laptops soon and they want in on it. WIN8 is built to start moving into that platform. Failure to do so will cost them dearly.

I have provided references to multiple articles describing Windows 8 as being implemented on the same MinWin kernel that supports Vista and Windows 7. Windows 8 is without question an evolutionary descendant of Windows 7, not a new operating system as you repeatedly assert, but can never substantiate. Does Windows 8 include a new user interface (Metro) designed to better support tablets? Certainly, but doing this did not require Microsoft to implement Windows 8 from scratch, as you have claimed.

Had you been able to find an article supporting your claim that Windows 8 is a new operating system, you'd have posted it by now. You can't because it isn't. Case closed.

And on multitasking, every recent (since year 2000) true multitask OS I have us
ed has had a task or priority scheduler in it. Even QNX has one too.  Never find that on a Driod because it cannot support it. Maybe some day but not yet and several active flavors or versions of Andriod being used does not help this either. Andriod needs a major upgrade and consistent version level across platform with new devices. MS wants to do this too, IOS mostly does this and BB will be too after first of year or so. In this tech world OSes can fall as fast or faster than they rose. Androids future is far from assured.

You said "Android does not support multitasking", not "Android does not support pre-emptive multitasking". Your claim is false. Case closed.

The bankrupt company to which you're referring is Nortel. Without knowing the name of the company, how can you possibly know whether its patent portfolio would have been useful to Google?

I was well aware of Nortels assets and how Google flubbed the bidding on it big time with silly bids. I was watch the auction to see who was going to get it because it was a high value item. It was a long awaited sale.  Do you think that Apple, MS, Intel and BB would have teamed up if it was not a high value item.  Never would have happened. There were going to make sure Goggle did not get it.

So you deduce that Nortel's patents must have been valuable to Google because other companies teamed up to acquire them? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You obviously don't check facts before making pronouncements; otherwise, you'd know that Windows 8 is not "a new OS", but rather is built on the MinWin kernel just like Vista and Windows 7, you'd know that multitasking does not require a pre-emptive scheduler, and you'd know that OS/2 could not possibly be based on Linux.

You have a big problem with new OS thing don't you?

I have a big problem with you posting blatantly false information here.

Unless it is ALL NEW code you do not considered it a new OS even if it is a major upgrade/change. Like a said before new every 2. Every 2 releases MS has a major change/upgrade  Win2000 major, WINXP minor tweak, Vista major (and 64 bit main stream support too) and WIN7 a tweak of Vista. WIN8 is another major upgrade/change. Wishing and saying it is not does not change what it will be. MS must move away from Desktop as main focus and that requires a major code change. A WIN7 tweak or clone will not work here

As any reader can see, your original claim was that Windows 8 is an all new operating system. Now you're retreating to "Windows 8 is a major upgrade" -- a statement with which I would never have taken issue.

Motorola did not sell Motorola Mobility to Google. Motorola split into two companies -- Motorola Mobility and Motorola Solutions -- early this year, completing an action announced in 2008. If the deal goes through, Google will buy Motorola Mobility from its shareholders, not from the no-longer-existent "Motorola" as you claim above. Wrong again!

Motorola would not have split off phone division unless it knew it was a loosing prospect in future. If it was viable and had a great future it would have not split it off. Many company spin off weaker parts to sell them and focus on core.

As explained in the article above -- and any number of other web-accessible articles that you evidently can't be bothered to read -- Motorola did not "split off (its) phone division". Motorola was divided into two separate companies because there was little synergy between them.

W8JX, you are a reliable source of mis-information, and evidently proud of your ignorance; wallow in it. Readers of this forum now have you calibrated. There is no need for me to waste another minute on this thread, so the last words are all yours.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 06:37:17 PM by AA6YQ » Logged
W8JX
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« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2011, 07:01:20 PM »


As stated below I do NOT consider 90's WIN9x style multitasking, true multitasking. If you do you have a very low standard and like old tech. It has not been used is a new 32 bit or 64 bit MS OS since late 99

OS2 was influenced by Unix. Linux, which was developed after OS2, was also influenced by Unix. As a result, there are similarities between OS2 and Linux. However, since the development of Linux started years after OS2 was already released, OS2 cannot possibly have based on Linux as you claim. Once again, you have taken an empirical observation - "OS2 and Linux have similarities in their command lines" and jumped to a completely incorrect conclusion.

If you want to debate semantics have at it. Unix was start and was not free, Linux started as a free spin off of it and evolved over years.  IBM got hung up and wanting to make OS/2 support on work in protected mode on a 286 and wasted time with 1.x series. You can use Unix/Linux commands with OS/2 so they are based/share command structure.

I have provided references to multiple articles describing Windows 8 as being implemented on the same MinWin kernel that supports Vista and Windows 7. Windows 8 is without question an evolutionary descendant of Windows 7, not a new operating system as you repeatedly assert, but can never substantiate. Does Windows 8 include a new user interface (Metro) designed to better support tablets? Certainly, but doing this did not require Microsoft to implement Windows 8 from scratch, as you have claimed.

There is more than a interface. They had to change code and feature to get it thin enough for tablet and responsive on tablets. Word is too Metro has a tuff time multitasking on screen too. You cannot hang Metro on Win7 and call it WIN8 and have a tablet OS. If it was that simple they would have done it long ago.

Had you been able to find an article supporting your claim that Windows 8 is a new operating system, you'd have posted it by now. You can't because it isn't. Case closed.

Oh I could find LOTS of them but it is not my fault you cannot read them on own. Info is out there and so is history new/major overhaul ever 2. It is a pattern too

You said "Android does not support multitasking", not "Android does not support pre-emptive multitask". Your claim is false. Case closed.

I am sorry but you have a weaker standard for multitasking than I do. I do not consider cooperative multitasking true multitasking. This is like WIN95/98 guy. Ancient but guess you feel it is tip of the sword.  

The bankrupt company to which you're referring is Nortel. Without knowing the name of the company, how can you possibly know whether its patent portfolio would have been useful to Google?

I do a LOT of RSS feed tech reading and insider reading every day from everywhere and have it stream to my phone, PC and tablet too. Been following outcome for some time. Long time ago I actually worked some with Nortel equipment too

So you deduce that Nortel's patents must have been valuable to Google because other companies teamed up to acquire them? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh I know all right. Many have wanted that group for a long time Goggle made some silly bids like pie (3.14xxx billion) And like I said MS Apple and Intel would not have wasted time if they were no good. Google knew it goofed after the fact.

I have a big problem with you posting blatantly false information here.

Well obviously not with yourself doing it. Your dog is not hunting....

As any reader can see, your original claim was that Windows 8 is an all new operating system. Now you're retreating to "Windows 8 is a major upgrade" -- a statement with which I would never have taken issue.

Motorola did not sell Motorola Mobility to Google. Motorola split into two companies -- Motorola Mobility and Motorola Solutions -- early this year, completing an action announced in 2008. If the deal goes through, Google will buy Motorola Mobility from its shareholders, not from the no-longer-existent "Motorola" as you claim above. Wrong again!

No as explained below, they did it to get rid of it in future and gain tax advantage. YOu surely are not naive enough they did not benefit from spin off.

As explained in the article above -- and any number of other web-accessible articles that you evidently can't be bothered to read -- Motorola did not "split off (its) phone division". Motorola was divided into two separate companies because there was little synergy between them.

And you are to stuck to admit they did this because they knew competition was going to limit availability of main company so it was spun off. I have seen this many times with other companies. Guess you reading it too tunnel vision. There would been no spin off and unit to buy if it had a future. You cannot wrap you mind around that it seems

W8JX, you are a reliable source of mis-information, and evidently proud of your ignorance; wallow in it. Readers of this forum now have you calibrated. There is no need for me to waste another minute on this thread, so the last words are all yours.

The mis-info is you guy. You are not just happy to debate, you want to degrade when you cannot sell it or BS it thru. You have gone thru a lot to sell that 90's style cooperative multi tasking as true multitasking in Android as on the cutting edge when it is not at all. Is it popular, yes but is it a powerful true multitasking OS. Most definitely not and no song and dance or insult will change that.  
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 08:11:58 PM by W8JX » Logged
AE5HO
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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2011, 01:57:51 PM »

Guys, just read a little: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html

Premptive multitasking and SMP as well.  Just google "android multitasking" and read away.
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AA6YQ
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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2011, 07:54:42 PM »

Guys, just read a little: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html

Premptive multitasking and SMP as well.  Just google "android multitasking" and read away.

I posted that very article in one of my responses above (reply #38). It had no more effect than any of the other fact-based articles I posted.

    73,

        Dave, AA6YQ
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STAYVERTICAL
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« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2011, 12:05:05 PM »

Guys,

I have been away a few days and I missed a few episodes of this soap opera.
Could someone please tell me if Martha and Kyle decided to go pre-emptive or simple multi-tasking.
Also, did Jake finally decide to upgrade his BIOS or is he holding out for a donor?

I realise that these matters are not life and death in nature, and that the whole show is a confabulation
of hot air inflating oversize ego's, but you know how it is, after a while you sort of think of them as real
and they become part of one's life.

Oh, for the simple days of scratching a living from share-cropping and being glad to have a full stomach.
In those days such weighty matters as OS wars were not the province of mere mortals.

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AA6YQ
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« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2011, 09:14:17 PM »

Guys,

I have been away a few days and I missed a few episodes of this soap opera.
Could someone please tell me if Martha and Kyle decided to go pre-emptive or simple multi-tasking.
Also, did Jake finally decide to upgrade his BIOS or is he holding out for a donor?

I realise that these matters are not life and death in nature, and that the whole show is a confabulation
of hot air inflating oversize ego's, but you know how it is, after a while you sort of think of them as real
and they become part of one's life.

Oh, for the simple days of scratching a living from share-cropping and being glad to have a full stomach.
In those days such weighty matters as OS wars were not the province of mere mortals.


Failing to correct blatant mis-information that could lead readers astray would be irresponsible. Ignoring snarky tail-enders ? Priceless.
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W3WN
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« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2011, 06:02:02 AM »

Been doing some reading and it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too and tightening Microsoft's grip on PC market. Those holding out for Windows 8 for PC upgrades might reconsider. 
I wouldn't worry about this just yet.  For one thing, I'm sure that if this actually happens (which I doubt), it won't be long before there are a few enterprising souls who come up with a patch to work around this.

Granted, it's not the first time Microsoft has been accused of trying a stunt like this.  Anyone else remember when Windows 3 was being configured to run only on MS-DOS, and had a built-in flag to detect if DR-DOS was the underlying OS... and not load?  That didn't last too long, and I suspect that neither will this stunt.  If it actually happens.
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W3WN
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« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2011, 06:10:25 AM »

It is a new OS. MS has a pattern for many years now to make a new OS then tweak it with a new release and then start over. Win2000 was new, XP was a tweak of 2000.  Vista was a new direction, Win7 was a tweak.  Win8 is a new direction again. Sure it will run on a desktop top but MS realizes that laptops (and maybe Desktops) could be on life support in a few years or so as Tablets evolve so Win8's primary focus is on Tablet not desktop as the new frontier.
That's a bit of an over-simplification.

When Microsoft & IBM split up ownership of OS/2, MS OS/2 became Windows NT.  NT started as version 3 to match the numbering for Windows 3, it's later upgrades were 3.5 & then 4.0  (and I'm deliberatly skipping on the details here).  NT 5 became Windows 2000 (which causes confusion because Windows over DOS, Windows 3, became Windows 95, Windows 98, and then Windows ME, although to be consistent, IT shouldhave gotten the 2K moniker... but we are talking about Microsoft here). 

It in turn begat Windows XP (NT 5.5), which begat Windows Vista (NT 6).  Vista 2.0 was rechristend as Windows 7 (it actually should be Windows 6.5).

It should be no surprise that development continues once a feature set for a given OS is "frozen" and sent into beta testing and then into Release Candidate mode.  Some parts of the OS's underlying code are completely rewritten or overhauled... but the whole thing from start to finish?  I don't think so.
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W3WN
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« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2011, 06:15:19 AM »

You mean Dave Cutler, who developed VMS at DEC.

Where's the (yuck) after Windows Me? It's at least as deserving as Vista.

Hopefully your genealogy will put a stop to the "Windows 8 is a new OS" BS.
Fair enough:

Windows ME (*yuck*)

Vista has, IMHO, been given a bum rap... and I'm using it from this very machine.  The real problem with Vista was the way it was marketed... it required more resources to run optimally than was originally promised, and many so-called "Vista Ready" machines, well, they could run it, but not well, as they didn't have enough RAM and sometimes not a fast or powerful enough processor to run it right.

It's well known that Windows ME, however, was deliberately stripped down and somewhat crippled by Microsoft.  I don't know if they were trying to keep it out of business hands (forcing businesses to go with Win 2000 only), or if they were trying to kill the Windows-GUI-Over-DOS line altogether... or possibly more than a little of both.  Pity.
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W0BTU
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« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2011, 09:02:20 PM »

it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too ...

What about running Win8 inside VirtualBox running under Linux? Is Win8 going to prevent us from doing that?

Or Linux running inside VirtualBox running under Win8?

I suppose those questions can't yet be answered.
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W8JX
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« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2011, 01:45:03 PM »

it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too ...

What about running Win8 inside VirtualBox running under Linux? Is Win8 going to prevent us from doing that?

Or Linux running inside VirtualBox running under Win8?

I suppose those questions can't yet be answered.

I doubt MS will leak that early on. Only time will answer that question...
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KF7CG
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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2011, 11:02:02 AM »

From what little I have seen here, Win 8 will probably only run with an on Win8. If it does indeeed require a new bios (bios replacement) base and won't run without it, and the "bios" wont allow other than Win8; presto, a Win 8 only (maybe othe Microsoft) box forever.

KF7CG
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KD8QDL
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« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2011, 04:46:33 AM »

The smart money should consider a total Ubuntu 11.10 Linux install.  When my Win 7 HD died, I made the switch and will never look back.  As I write this post on my Linux based machine, I can only hope that others will take the time to investigate the speed and depth of Linux and where it is going.  I introduced it to my Ham Club and ARES groups in Ohio, and the response has been overwhelmingly good as many look forward to making the switch.  Ham operators have been "out of the box thinkers" since the inception of the discipline.  Linux should be our OS.  It's very inexpensive (FREE), more stable than Windows, and has a great many programs (33,000+) available at no charge for those willing to make the jump to light speed.  Not bad!!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 06:27:07 AM by KD8QDL » Logged
W8JX
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« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2011, 11:34:53 AM »

The smart money should consider a total Ubuntu 11.10 Linux install.  When my Win 7 HD died, I made the switch and will never look back.  As I write this post on my Linux based machine, I can only hope that others will take the time to investigate the speed and depth of Linux and where it is going.  I introduced it to my Ham Club and ARES groups in Ohio, and the response has been overwhelmingly good as many look forward to making the switch.  Ham operators have been "out of the box thinkers" since the inception of the discipline.  Linux should be our OS.  It's very inexpensive (FREE), more stable than Windows, and has a great many programs (33,000+) available at no charge for those willing to make the jump to light speed.  Not bad!!

Linux is fine for business and some users but it still lacks universal GUI that made Windoze power it is today and off shelf program and device support. Next frontier is going to be tablet not new OS on Desktop. I do not madly love Windoze but I use it because of off shelve support. On good hardware 64 bit OS is very stable.
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KD8QDL
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« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2011, 03:59:41 PM »

Off the shelf software is great, but Windows is not open source and, therefore, many of us have to rely on Microsoft for expensive upgrades and/or fixes.  The limits to open source code are nonexistent, and the speed at which Linux runs is flat out faster than any Windows install running on the same hardware.  Since Windows tries to be all things to all people, its bloated resource needs simply cannot compete with a Linux install where the user gets to pick and choose the applications and the options he or she desires.  The virus issues Microsoft has to deal with are a real problem, one which Linux users seldom see because the virus writers concentrate on the low hanging Microsoft fruit and never take the time or make the effort to hack Linux.  Even if they did, there is an army of open source Linux devotees out there who would correct the problem in a matter of minutes versus the hours or days that it takes Microsoft to fix.  Sorry to disagree, but I have used Windows for years (DOS before that) and I truly believe the best OS is Linux..the price is great (FREE) and the Linux community is incredibly supportive.  Just try it and you will be pleasantly surprised.  Ubuntu 11.10 is free for downloading over the net.  Get it and burn yourself an image copy.  You won't be disappointed.
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