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Author Topic: Why do some OP's send VVVVV between passages?  (Read 1902 times)
M1KTA
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Posts: 32




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« on: November 19, 2003, 07:08:58 AM »

I'm still learning cw to be able to actually have qso's on air. Class room is one thing, on air just feels so different and too fast for me currently, fortunately I've had a few slow qso's so far (tnx to op that have reduced speed to help me) but I've started to notice that the use of ...- ...- ...- ...- or v v v v being inserted between passages on some qso's. I'm listening to these qso's to operating practices.

I'm still far too slow to pick up or join it yet with 12wpm+ qso's so couldn't ask directly but is this normal practice?

ct ct -.-. - -.-. - is the start or end of a passage isn't it so wondered why vvvv was being inserted.

72/3

Dom
M1KTA
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K5CEY
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2003, 04:58:24 PM »

Dom,
  Traditionally for many years the V ..._ has been used as a "Test" signal.
  It sounds to me that he's just sending a string of V's to kill time while he's thinking of something to say.
  However, I'm more accustomed to a string of Double Dashes _..._  to kill time.
  "ct _._. _" has got me buffaloed. Don't know what he's doing there.
             John  K5CEY
 
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W4YA
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Posts: 317




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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2003, 05:32:49 PM »

Dom,
Good question. I've never heard anyone send VVV in a QSO. A good habit to get into is to turn it back to the other guy if you run down. A better one is to ask a question, and then turn it over. Maybe keep a short list, like "How does the band sound?"  "Heard any good DX?" etc.

A terrible habit is to say "OK on your..."  Don't repeat everything the other guy just said. The worst is to send faster than you can copy, especially CQ. Always tell the other guy that you are new to CW. We were all there once!

A great habit is to get your feet wet and enjoy a few CW QSOs when you can.

73, Jim W4YA
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M1KTA
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Posts: 32




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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2003, 03:13:00 AM »

Thanks that makes sense.... an email exchange last night answered the other questions...

'Thinking time' is what I was told is the likely reason for the repeated characters some military units OP's got used to using one character over another apparently and sending vvvvv could be used if the OM was ex-signals. Likewise ct ct which means beginning or end of a passage. This was used by telegraph operators as well to separate signals apparently... Source was 83yrs young !

Anyway his comment was I'd probably have a hard time breaking in on that qso (OM comment) as probably two or more old friends banging away at the speed they want to/used to operate at and changing it might be a little difficult.

Anyway... about to try to look for some more slower cwe qso's....

72/3

Dom
M1KTA
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2003, 01:05:46 PM »

What you're hearing is likely BT rather than V.

BT, or _..._ is the signal for a break in thought (as opposed to a break in transmission, which is BK, or _..._._), and CW ops have been using BT to separate thoughts, or as a "place holder" to indicate they're still there while thinking of something to say, for about 90 years.

WB2WIK/6
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W3JJH
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2003, 04:29:42 PM »

Some commercial and government stations send strings of Vs in order to "hold" a channel open.  Perhaps some operators are developing a bad habit of copying a procedure that is not appropriate for ham radio.
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M1KTA
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2003, 05:45:26 AM »

>What you're hearing is likely BT rather than V.

Nope... was definately vvvvvvv. The repeat never started with a '_' but with a '.' I had recorded it on MD and asked my dad (ex-royal navy) and he ID'd it as vvvvvvv and not ======.

Keeping the QSO/channel open/ thinking time was viewed as the likely reason as well as transcribing vvvvv when recieving would have been automatically recognised as a pause in the exchange and the considered view seemed that it might have been an ex-service pair in qso. The call signs were G0 to G2... and the exchange although far too fast for me at normal speed when slowed down to below 1/4 normal speed seemed to read like a letter or report on some  activity so the thought was that the vintage of the calls might indicate ex-service operators doing what they did best way back when.

Thanks.

Dom
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N2KIN
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2003, 04:19:46 PM »

I believe he's sending the Vs. Couplel days ago I heard a station sending Vs also before his call.
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W5HTW
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2003, 11:06:56 PM »

More commonly heard (and also not proper procedure) is the SN sent as a "thinking moment."  "...-."  Repeated until the mind gets in gear and has something new to say.  Have not heard "vvv" used in that manner but anything is possible.  And getting more possible all the time.  I've heard mil ops use the double "i" to fill space, though it is more commonly used by both mil and hams as a error signal, or a separation signal (the later is correct usage.)   ".. .."  But the most popular space-filler heard on the ham bands is the BT "-...-" and it has been for all the years I've been listening to the bands.  While this, too, has a formal meaning, as separation at the beginning and ending of text of a message, it is commonly used in place of a period as well as just to fiddle time away while going over your notes to see what you need to respond to next!  In other words -- space filler!

Also not familiar with the 'ct' you mention in that context.   "-.-.-" is the result, but had not realized it was used in place of BT to begin or end text or comments.  

You'll find folks traveling along at your speed.  Join in, or call CQ or answer a CQ.  It's all a buncha fun.

Ed
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KE4MOB
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2003, 01:28:35 AM »

Don't know what this particular op was celebrating, but V's were used as "channel holders" much as JJH indicates.  Used to hear these all the time on the maritime bands up until a few years ago.  Typical format would be:

VVV
VVV
VVV
de (callsign 3 times)

repeat
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M1KTA
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Posts: 32




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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2003, 05:31:58 AM »

Thanks for all the replies everyone... I try not to emulate the vvvv style.

I've been much encouraged by one OP in particular who dropped from 25wpm to less than 8wpm to reply to me just before the w/e he had called cq dx 3 times on 20m with no reply, so I listened and with no other OP replying sent him my call after his 4th cq. It was just a 2 exchange QSO of rst, qth and call sign as local QRN,  MiG welding next door just as I was into 3rd exchange wiped my RX front end out totally, OP had gone by the time my RX recovered and neighbour had stopped welding.

Still looking for those sub 10wpm qso's.... anyone heard one lately?

Dom
M1KTA
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N8UZE
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2003, 10:28:33 AM »

To get a slow QSO, you will either need to call CQ yourself or reply at your own slower speed to a faster CQ call.  The best ops will slow down automatically to your speed right a way.  An op that is merely good may need you to tell them what speed you need so learn to send "PS QRS xx" where xx is a number showing the words per minute that you need. i.e.  send "PS QRS 5" if 5wpm is the speed you need.

Keep working and practicing to get to at least 13wpm.  This is a comfortable speed for casual conversation that doesn't put too much strain on experienced ops when they slow down to this speed.

At the very slow speeds, the experienced ops will work you but they are apt to keep it short as it is now hard for them to go that slow even though they all started that way themselves.  However they realize that they need to help the new people along and so are happy to work you just as people helped them.
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M1KTA
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2003, 12:12:32 PM »

n8uze de m1kta = tnx fer msg = qrs nr13 wpm r = hope t wrk u = cul 73 = n8uze de m1kta k

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M3GKA
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2003, 08:27:42 AM »

CT (-.-.-) in the marine commercial world was used to signify the start of a telegram.
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ADAM12
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2003, 03:01:09 PM »

CT ? Instead of CT, it could be you heard .-.-.- (full stop or period).
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