Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Portable Power???  (Read 7536 times)
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2011, 05:10:13 PM »

btw, jet fuel and diesel fuel are much less volatile than gasoline.

I can tell you have never been around JP4. Nasty stuff that light easier than you think and burns blue at times too. I have seen it easily lit many times for fire suppression training. 


Yet we don't hear about traffic fatalities in the news unless they are very unusual or very local. They're so common that it's not "news".

You would hear about gas fires of any magnitude. You do not because they are not.

Gasoline can be very dangerous if mishandled. Filling a portable generator while it is running is just not a good idea.

Guns are dangerous mishandled too. So are cars as well. With a few precautions it can be done safely with proper fillers and always using a fill jug that holds less fuel than tank will safely take so you cannot overfill it.


Of course, you can do it and get away with it most of the time. But safety isn't about what you can get away with most of the time. It's about what you do the other times to prevent a bad thing happening.

Only why you can mostly prevent accidents is remove human from equation. Short of that good judgement. If you cannot handle gas safely, you should not be messing with it at all.

Is the risk of a gasoline fire worth the few minutes saved?

The "risk" depends on you. I would not recommend refueling a small generator with a small tank using a large can when running but a big unit can safely be done if you use a little common sense. I can remember a few old farm tractor types that were known to boil gas in tank on a hot day from engine heat. The "solution" was a better pressure cap that vented vapors.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3721




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2011, 05:36:28 PM »

hi,

Honda EU series are lighter then conventional gensets,
and run quieter then most 2 cycle weed trimmers.
You can also parallel two of the same models with an
optional cable.  

Below info from the Honda EU FAQ.

How does inverter technology work and what are the advantages of an inverter-type generator, like the Honda EU series?

A multiphase AC output is rectified into DC then inverted into AC. This removes the requirement of the engine to run at 3600 rpm to make 60 Hz AC power. It also dramatically reduces the size and weight of the generator. This reduction is possible since Honda inverter generators have the alternator built into the engine itself and eliminates the need for a bulky independent alternator.

As compared to standard generators, inverter-type generators put out more stable electricity in the form of a superior sine wave at 60Hz. This is very important for the operation of sensitive electronics. Also, inverter generators provide better fuel economy and quietness due to their ability to run at lower engine speeds at light loads

73 james
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 05:44:50 PM by KE4DRN » Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 04:21:56 AM »

btw, jet fuel and diesel fuel are much less volatile than gasoline.

I can tell you have never been around JP4.

JP4 is a mixture of gasoline, kerosene and additives. Nasty stuff, yes, but not as volatile as regular gasoline. JP4 was phased out by 1996 (15 years ago!) and replaced by JP8, which has a higher flash point and is less volatile.

Regular automotive gas, meanwhile, is now up to 10% ethanol. 


Yet we don't hear about traffic fatalities in the news unless they are very unusual or very local. They're so common that it's not "news".
You would hear about gas fires of any magnitude. You do not because they are not.

That's just not logical. We don't hear about every highway death, yet we'd hear about gasoline fires? Why?

You may think your precautions are adequate, but they are not.

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2011, 06:25:29 AM »

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836

JP4 is a mixture of gasoline, kerosene and additives. Nasty stuff, yes, but not as volatile as regular gasoline. JP4 was phased out by 1996 (15 years ago!) and replaced by JP8, which has a higher flash point and is less volatile.

Military still uses a LOT of JP4.

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836
Regular automotive gas, meanwhile, is now up to 10% ethanol. 


And point is?  I avoid fuel with it. I use it only when I am forced to on road

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836
That's just not logical. We don't hear about every highway death, yet we'd hear about gasoline fires? Why?

Very logical. News likes unusual and fiery events and if there was a gas explosions and it was happening a lot you would hear about it. 


Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836
You may think your precautions are adequate, but they are not.

Based on what?  Again most safety rules or guidelines are meant for users that cannot safely setup and use a step ladder or walk and chew gum and cannot think ahead and look at big picture. If you put some thought into and make sure you cannot possible over fill it it can be done safely. I am talking about bigger units too and not little "toy" generators.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12770




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2011, 08:39:12 AM »

"most safety rules or guidelines are meant for users that cannot safely setup and use a step ladder or walk and chew gum"

Yup, safety rules are meant for everyone except me  Grin
Logged
KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3721




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2011, 07:46:17 PM »

hi,

Gasoline has a low flash point, minus 45 deg F,
the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize
to form an ignitable mixture in air.

You can't see the vapors, they are heavier then air and will
move down towards the ground and will travel a distance
where the vapors may find an ignition source.

An open container will allow the gasoline vapors to escape.

When a genset is running the fuel in the tank will be agitated,
this will increase the amount of vapors being released.

The vapors will be displaced from both the supply container
and the container that is being refueled.

Filling the tank past the recommended level is not the only problem,
it is the vapors that are being displaced.

Perform a google search on blitz gas fires and you will see 
plenty of accidents make the tv news headlines and lawsuits.
Tragic accidents that need not happen involving gasoline fires,
yes many are from using gas on open fires or as an accelerant.
No matter, the vapors found an ignition source and an accident happened.

Very important to follow safety instructions, wear appropriate safety gear
and have fire extinguisher handy.  Even better, have somebody watch you
during refueling operations should something go wrong.

You've got nothing to loose, except your life.

73 james


Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2011, 08:18:38 PM »

"most safety rules or guidelines are meant for users that cannot safely setup and use a step ladder or walk and chew gum"

Yup, safety rules are meant for everyone except me  Grin


No because of liability laws and "sharks" they have to be as idiot proof as possible at times.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2011, 08:22:36 PM »

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836

JP4 is a mixture of gasoline, kerosene and additives. Nasty stuff, yes, but not as volatile as regular gasoline. JP4 was phased out by 1996 (15 years ago!) and replaced by JP8, which has a higher flash point and is less volatile.

Military still uses a LOT of JP4.

Whose military? The US Air Force phased it out 15 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-4

Some quotes:

"JP-4, or JP4 (for "Jet Propellant") was a jet fuel....It was a 50-50 kerosene-gasoline blend. It has lower flash point than JP-1, but was preferred because of its greater availability. It was the primary U.S. Air Force jet fuel between 1951 and 1995. "
"Although it has a low flash point (0 °F (−18 °C)), if a lit match is dropped into JP-4, ignition does not occur."
"The desire for a less flammable, less hazardous fuel led the U.S. Air Force to phase out JP-4 in favor of JP-8; the transition was completed by the fall of 1996."
Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836
Regular automotive gas, meanwhile, is now up to 10% ethanol.


And point is?  I avoid fuel with it. I use it only when I am forced to on road

The point is that gasoline is much more volatile, and ethanol only makes it more so.

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836
That's just not logical. We don't hear about every highway death, yet we'd hear about gasoline fires? Why?

Very logical. News likes unusual and fiery events and if there was a gas explosions and it was happening a lot you would hear about it.  

Except they're not such unusual events. That's why they don't make the news, just as most car accidents don't.

Again most safety rules or guidelines are meant for users that cannot safely setup and use a step ladder or walk and chew gum and cannot think ahead and look at big picture. If you put some thought into and make sure you cannot possible over fill it it can be done safely. I am talking about bigger units too and not little "toy" generators.

Safety rules are meant for everyone. The most dangerous person is the one who thinks they don't apply to him/her. The first rule of safety is that it applies 100% of the time.

Generators over a certain size usually run on diesel, which is much less dangerous than gasoline. You may consider generators under a certain size to be "toys" but it's the gasoline that's the danger.

I've been around rather large gensets, btw. 6000 HP units, for example. I guess they'd be considered "portable" because they're on wheels....



73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2011, 08:52:51 PM »

Gasoline has a low flash point, minus 45 deg F,
the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize
to form an ignitable mixture in air.

this is misleading because that just means it is temperature that it starts making vapor not explosively  and this temp varies with blend as summer gas has a much higher temp for this. Self ignition point it will self ignite and that is a LOT higher than you think.


You can't see the vapors, they are heavier then air and will
move down towards the ground and will travel a distance
where the vapors may find an ignition source.

And further they travel more diluted they get and again if this was a big problem we would not be using gas to power cars.

An open container will allow the gasoline vapors to escape.

When a genset is running the fuel in the tank will be agitated,
this will increase the amount of vapors being released.

The vapors will be displaced from both the supply container
and the container that is being refueled.

Filling the tank past the recommended level is not the only problem,
it is the vapors that are being displaced.

And point is? When generator is running air is moving and displacing vapors when off and hot they pool around it.


Perform a google search on blitz gas fires and you will see 
plenty of accidents make the tv news headlines and lawsuits.
Tragic accidents that need not happen involving gasoline fires,
yes many are from using gas on open fires or as an accelerant.
No matter, the vapors found an ignition source and an accident happened.

and for guns, cars, fireplaces and many other things too


Very important to follow safety instructions, wear appropriate safety gear
and have fire extinguisher handy.  Even better, have somebody watch you
during refueling operations should something go wrong.

Seriously if you are that insecure and unsure about it you do not need to be handling any gas.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 05:26:02 AM »

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836

JP4 is a mixture of gasoline, kerosene and additives. Nasty stuff, yes, but not as volatile as regular gasoline. JP4 was phased out by 1996 (15 years ago!) and replaced by JP8, which has a higher flash point and is less volatile.

Military still uses a LOT of JP4.

Whose military? The US Air Force phased it out 15 years ago.

I think you better read again because JP4 died only in name sake. As recently as 2004 U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-5624U Grade JP-4 was establish AND it and JP5 were merged under same specification so while they do not call it JP4 directly, they still use fuels of its specification. It is a must have in cold arctic climates. (they do not fly to Antarctic with JP8 in tanks)  So you could say they stopped using fuel under JP4 name but not under its spec.

Military rarely does away with things completely and often give the appearance of it for political reasons and still uses it (as does NATO under F40) but changes the name. JP4 is the best there is for extreme cold as again flash point is just were it starts to give off ignitable vapors and far from peak point as it increases with temperature and you will need a good ignition source to try to get it to burn at flash point and when it does it will be very tame until it is warmed up more.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2011, 10:11:20 AM »

Quote from: N2EY link=topic=78301.msg549836#msg549836

JP4 is a mixture of gasoline, kerosene and additives. Nasty stuff, yes, but not as volatile as regular gasoline. JP4 was phased out by 1996 (15 years ago!) and replaced by JP8, which has a higher flash point and is less volatile.

Military still uses a LOT of JP4.

Whose military? The US Air Force phased it out 15 years ago.

I think you better read again because JP4 died only in name sake. As recently as 2004 U.S. Military Specification MIL-DTL-5624U Grade JP-4 was establish AND it and JP5 were merged under same specification so while they do not call it JP4 directly, they still use fuels of its specification. It is a must have in cold arctic climates. (they do not fly to Antarctic with JP8 in tanks)  So you could say they stopped using fuel under JP4 name but not under its spec.

Maybe. 2004 was 7 years ago.

Note that its use is limited to extreme-cold applications, too.

Military rarely does away with things completely and often give the appearance of it for political reasons and still uses it (as does NATO under F40) but changes the name. JP4 is the best there is for extreme cold as again flash point is just were it starts to give off ignitable vapors and far from peak point as it increases with temperature and you will need a good ignition source to try to get it to burn at flash point and when it does it will be very tame until it is warmed up more.


Thanks for proving my point: JP4 is less volatile and harder to ignite than gasoline. Yet "the military" reduced its use as much as practical due to the fire hazard.

Gasoline is pretty dangerous stuff unless handled properly. Filling a hot, running portable generator where the tank is above or right next to the engine isn't proper handling. In fact the cap on the tank should not be removed with the engine running.

You may think you are "safe" because you use a small filler can. But how do you know how empty the tank really is?

Every gas station I've been to in the past several years has automatic shutoff pumps, breakaway hoses, and other safety equipment. Many have a fire-suppression system built into the canopy over the pump area (that's what the hoses pointing down at the pumps are). Every car and light truck has the filler many feet from the engine. And yet the rule is that the engine is shut off when fueling.

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2011, 11:46:44 AM »


You may think you are "safe" because you use a small filler can. But how do you know how empty the tank really is?


It is called a fuel gauge. First time I fill it I make note of how much gas is needed for what reading. I never try to fill it to brim running.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
KE4DRN
Member

Posts: 3721




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2011, 06:10:45 PM »

W8JX,

The flash point of fuels is a scientific fact, nothing misleading about it.

Exactly why you do not refuel a running or hot genset, you wait for it to cool down.
The exhaust manifold is less then 1' below the fuel tank compared to a car or boat.

>And point is? When generator is running air is moving and displacing vapors when off and hot they pool around it

The fuel cap is tight on a running genset, no vapors are released, fresh air is taken in
via the vent in the cap.  When you remove the cap, vapors are released, liquid gas may
also be released due to the vibration of the running genset.

Interesting video demonstration on gasoline vapors  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4O1AqmM-T4

Gas with 10% ethanol still has the same flash point, check the MSDS for E-10 fuels.

Again, I follow MSDS and standard safety procedures, I am very secure.

>Seriously if you are that insecure and unsure about it you do not need to be handling any gas.

Your comments about your military experience, jet fuels, firearms, cars, fireplaces, etc are irrelevant.

73 james

« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 06:17:23 PM by KE4DRN » Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5604




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2011, 06:41:08 PM »

The flash point of fuels is a scientific fact, nothing misleading about it.

And, if you really understood what flash point is, it is the point when internal vapor pressure in liquid barely over comes atmospheric pressure and some vapor escapes and vapor pressure is extremely very low. It is not a point of large amounts of explosive vapor. The higher the temperature, the higher that vapor pressure. The vapor pressure of gas is changed from summer to winter and there is a winter gas and summer gas.


Exactly why you do not refuel a running or hot genset, you wait for it to cool down.
The exhaust manifold is less then 1' below the fuel tank compared to a car or boat.

Well none of my generators have a exhaust manifold 1 inch from tank or even 2 inches from it. Also it is a lot hotter under the hood of a car in summer and carb days how many blew up and burned with vented carb bowls?

The fuel cap in tight on a running genset, no vapors are released, fresh air is taken in
via the vent in the cap.  When you remove the cap, vapors are released, liquid gas may
also be released due to the vibration of the running genset.

Trust me vapors are released as vent goes both ways. it may let 1 psi or so build up but it will vent. As far as gas vibrating out when running. None of mine do that and are very smooth too. Cannot speak for what you might have.

Your comments about your military experience, jet fuels, firearms, cars, fireplaces, etc are irrelevant.

Yes ignore it when you cannot find a defense to it. Good plan
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 06:43:39 PM by W8JX » Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2011, 02:36:29 AM »


Well none of my generators have a exhaust manifold 1 inch from tank or even 2 inches from it. Also it is a lot hotter under the hood of a car in summer and carb days how many blew up and burned with vented carb bowls?

Do you put gasoline into the tank of your car or truck with the engine running?

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!