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Author Topic: Rules for Operating at a Club Station  (Read 4817 times)
K1CJS
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2011, 10:18:32 AM »

"Can you, as AB1CD, go to the station of AB2EF and operate their equipment using your callsign and licence priveliges? Yes."

Can you? Part 97 still talks about "station license grants", "station licensee", and "control operator" responsibilities. I don't think its clear that you can operate another person's station (club or otherwise) using you own call sign. Certainly you can operate portable using your own equipment.

As someone else said, the station is no longer licensed, the operator is.  As long as the owner of the station allows you to operate the station, you can use your own callsign.  Think about it--if the owner steps out of the station, he isn't the control operator anymore until his return--you are.  As such, you MUST use your own callsign.

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Part 97 states: "When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign." It also states that the station cannot be identified by a call sign other than one authorized for use by that station. It makes me wonder if it really is legal to operate another ham's station using your call sign.

First, we'll say that he is a general class operator, and that you DO have his permission to operate his station. 

So now, what you're saying would be true if you are operating outside the limits of your license class, but not outside the limits of his.  On the other hand, if you're an extra, operating his station on the extra portion of the bands, you CAN NOT use his callsign alone since he is not licensed for the extra class portion of the bands.  You MUST use your own--you may or may not append his.  And, please, don't try to say if he's a general class licensee, his station can't be operated in the extra class portions of the bands.  That is bull, pure and simple.  HE can't operate there alone, but YOU can, and if you're there, he can if he uses your call--that is, uses you as the control operator.

Since the operator is the licensed entity, the operator is responsible for the operation of the individual station even if that station is not his.  If the station owner is not present but the operator that IS present has the owner's permission, that operator can either append the owners call to his call, or just use his own call.  It is not required by the regulations for the operator to append the owners callsign to those transmissions.
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NS8Q
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Posts: 135




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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2011, 12:43:35 PM »

I appreciate everyone's postings.

I spoke with a guy from our club who has been a member for a very long time and he was saying that there aren't any rules governing where you can use your call.  He did say that proper operating etiquette is to sign /P with your call to show that you were "portable" and away from your home station.  But as of late, the FCC rules do not require it.  Then he asked "why would anyone want to use their own call at a club station?".  He went on to say, "...there might be a "juicy" DX station that they were unable to work from home."

73
Chris
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N7SMI
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Posts: 343




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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2011, 02:06:05 PM »

To summarize, there's no problem with using your own call at a club (or any other station), so long as:

1) The station owner or club station trustee permits it.

2) You operate under the privileges for your own callsign. If you operate outside your privileges, but within the privileges of the club/station call (e.g., you're a General operating an Extra's station in the Extra portion of the band), you must use or append the club/station call, which for credit purposes means the QSO is not with your call and can't be used for credit.

3) The QSO is not used for credit for an award that does not allow this. For DXCC and WAZ, all contacts must be from the same DXCC entity. For WAS, all contacts must be from stations no two of which may be more than 50 miles apart. For VUCC, all contacts must be made from locations no more than 200 km apart.
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KD5PME
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Posts: 32




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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2011, 03:56:36 PM »

2) You operate under the privileges for your own callsign. If you operate outside your privileges, but within the privileges of the club/station call (e.g., you're a General operating an Extra's station in the Extra portion of the band), you must use or append the club/station call, which for credit purposes means the QSO is not with your call and can't be used for credit.

Ok, so only the owner of the station has to have a license and everyone can use his license? A Tech can go into a club station and operate as an Extra with no one present? How about someone who has no license - can he just go the club and operate the radio?

The answer is, of course not. You MUST operate within your own license unless a control operator of a higher class is there actually operating the radio in the bands available to the higher license.

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W6OP
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Posts: 341




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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2011, 04:22:23 PM »

For those saying it's unethical to use another station for DXCC. Tell me, does a mobile operator always have to be parked in the same spot for every contact to count for DXCC. What if he is on a hill one day, is that unethical?

Or do you all start over with your DXCC every time you buy an amp, or maybe just a better rig. What if you improve your antennas, do you have to start over?

Using another station in your area is no different than if you had improved your own, it isn't unethical or make your DXCC any less valid than anyone else.

I would guess those saying it's unethical have had their license a long time, I bet they haven't used the same rig, amp or antenna that whole time. Some may have even moved to a new location.

Pete W6OP
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12899




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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2011, 04:28:48 PM »

"Think about it--if the owner steps out of the station, he isn't the control operator anymore until his return--you are.  As such, you MUST use your own callsign"

As long as you are operating within your license class the trustee can designate you as the control operator and you can use the club call sign. The trustee does not have to be present, and typically isn't, for you to use the club call sign.

"A Tech can go into a club station and operate as an Extra with no one present?"

Absolutly not! If the trustee is not present then the Tech is the control operator and must operate the station within the limits of his license - even if he is using the club call sign. If the extra class trustee is present and functioning as the control operator then the tech can operate in the extra bands (with some limitations) - as could an unlicensed person. The limitations involve 3rd party traffic and may prevent legal communications with some countries.

According to my reading of the regulations, if the club trustee is a tech and I'm an extra I have to append my call sign to the club's call sign if I'm operating outside of the tech limitations. That makes sense so that people know what the tech call sign is doing in the extra bands. What's not clear is whether I, as an extra, have the option of just taking over the club station and use only my own call sign.
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N7SMI
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2011, 04:32:14 PM »

Ok, so only the owner of the station has to have a license and everyone can use his license?

Yes, more or less. The station owner's license is irrelevant. What matters is the license of the control operator (e.g., the person controlling "the immediate proper operation of the station"). If the station is operated under the control operator's license, then anyone can utilize the station under his license and within his privileges.

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A Tech can go into a club station and operate as an Extra with no one present?

Of course not. In this case there would be no Extra-level control operator. The Tech would be controlling the station and doing so outside his license privileges.

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How about someone who has no license - can he just go the club and operate the radio?

Of course not. Now if the station were under the direction of a control operator and the person without a license is operating inside the control operator's privileges, then all is good.

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You MUST operate within your own license unless a control operator of a higher class is there actually operating the radio in the bands available to the higher license.

Kind of. "Control operator" means control of the station, not necessarily control of the radio. Anyone can use the radio under his control, so long as they operate within the control operator's license privileges.

This ARRL FAQ answers most of these questions - http://www.arrl.org/regulatory-faqs
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N7SMI
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Posts: 343




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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2011, 04:38:46 PM »

What's not clear is whether I, as an extra, have the option of just taking over the club station and use only my own call sign.

There's nothing illegal about using or borrowing someone else's radio and using your callsign. Common sense would indicate that you should do so with their permission.

I could make a QSO with a club call and then immediately make a QSO with the same party using my own call so long as the club call QSO is within the privileges of the station control operator and my QSO is within my own license privileges (if you use your own call, you must operate under your privileges).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 05:45:13 PM by N7SMI » Logged
W8JI
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Posts: 9296


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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2011, 04:58:30 PM »

For those saying it's unethical to use another station for DXCC. Tell me, does a mobile operator always have to be parked in the same spot for every contact to count for DXCC. What if he is on a hill one day, is that unethical?

Whatever rows his boat. A person on 160 used to back up onto the beach and work DX.

That's a far cry from borrowing a big station.

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Or do you all start over with your DXCC every time you buy an amp, or maybe just a better rig. What if you improve your antennas, do you have to start over?

It's your stuff. Why would it matter?

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Using another station in your area is no different than if you had improved your own, it isn't unethical or make your DXCC any less valid than anyone else.


That's true, but the bragging rights dimish greatly when it is borrowed.

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I would guess those saying it's unethical have had their license a long time, I bet they haven't used the same rig, amp or antenna that whole time. Some may have even moved to a new location.

The DXCC rules used to be it had to be your own station (because of the FCC station callsign rules). Every country worked for credit had to be either worked from your staion in the same call area or from within a 150 mile radius. If you changed call areas and moved more than 150 miles, you had to start over.

I remember Charlie O'Brian W2EQS getting to around 98 countries on 160, and then moving from NJ to IN, where he lost all DXCC credit and had to start over at zero. He never complained or whined.

It actually was only when we got into this big spirt of deregulation that we were allowed to move anywhere and borrow another person's station to rack up an impressive total.

WAS awards used to require all contacts from one location.

73 Tom
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N4NYY
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Posts: 4800




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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2011, 05:06:46 PM »

Here is basically what I do. I belong to a club. I use my call in my house. I use the club call anytime I use their equipment. I use my license privileges when using the club call.

Personally, I am not counting any contacts or entities made outside my home, to my DXCC account. That is just me. If you want to count them and are within the DXCC rules, that is up to you. You have to decide.
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W8JI
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2011, 05:17:58 PM »

Here is basically what I do. I belong to a club. I use my call in my house. I use the club call anytime I use their equipment. I use my license privileges when using the club call.

Personally, I am not counting any contacts or entities made outside my home, to my DXCC account. That is just me. If you want to count them and are within the DXCC rules, that is up to you. You have to decide.

That's exactly right. Today, it is up to the person collecting the award to determine how he feels about using external help. If he feels like it is OK for someone to push him across the finish line, that's perfectly fine.

If you listen to WAS nets, you will get a good idea of how different people view accomplishment as individuals.
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N4NYY
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2011, 05:32:37 PM »

Quote
If you listen to WAS nets, you will get a good idea of how different people view accomplishment as individuals.

I got into it with some kook on DXing forum who was a retired judge, and decided to give me a lesson in honor and integrity. Basically, I asked if I had a guest OP in my house to make some QRP contacts, could he count them for QRP DXCC. Now, keyword is QRP. My station if a Yaesu FT-950 and Imax for the upper bands. The guest OP was Hollingsworth, who was speaking at our club, so he stopped by my house to make some QRP contacts. He ended up making none, I ended up making 1.

The kook judge lit me up about not having any honor and integrity, even though it *was* within the rules. When I told him I did not want an opinion, but an yes or no about the interpretation of the DXCC rules. He went on and on about station equipment advantages and cheating. Finally, I got fed up. I posted a pic on my QRZ page and told showed him the person that he accused of not having honor and integrity. Talk about sticking foot in mouth. I did not mention in the beginning of the thread that the guest OP was Hollingsworth. I only waited until I had a pic.

Bottom line, even with a simple yes or no answer, we had someone who had nothing better to do than to give me a self righteous speech.
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NR4C
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« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 10:41:30 AM »

The following is from the ARRL website, and I quote:

"Amateur Radio Club Station Licenses
                  INFORMATION, RULES AND FILING PROCEDURES

A club station license allows members of an amateur radio club to have a station operating under a club call sign. The license is granted only to the trustee of the club. It conveys no operating privileges."

An amateur with a technician class license may be the "trustee".  Even a NOVICE who had kept his license up-to-date may be a TRUSTEE.

...bill  nr4c
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