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Author Topic: Better IMD please  (Read 58042 times)
VK4DD
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Posts: 79




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« Reply #210 on: January 04, 2012, 12:22:53 AM »

May be Rudy made these amp for 400W for this PA station because that's his limit.
Honestly I don't know and I don't want to know it either. I suppose if you buy gear you look up the user group first and if you don't like what you see you go else where. Same thing with radios. If you are in a hurry and just buy something than you might learn some lessons others have learned too. Hey thats all theory I also do impulse buying and later you think... gosh I should have been more cautious.

Here in VK he seems to have good service and a good repuation, that's all I know.

Next topic.




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VE7RF
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Posts: 212




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« Reply #211 on: January 04, 2012, 04:21:36 AM »

May be Rudy made these amp for 400W for this PA station because that's his limit.
Honestly I don't know and I don't want to know it either. I suppose if you buy gear you look up the user group first and if you don't like what you see you go else where. Same thing with radios. If you are in a hurry and just buy something than you might learn some lessons others have learned too. Hey thats all theory I also do impulse buying and later you think... gosh I should have been more cautious.

Here in VK he seems to have good service and a good reputation, that's all I know.

Next topic.

##  nah.... the DX-4 runs 5600 watts output..key down.  you can see a pix of it here , running 5598 watts out.    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emtrondx15/?yguid=425439102

Nobody anywhere gives a damn about the legal limit anymore, esp EU. I mean like, who really cares how one gets his ERP anyway?    1.5 kw into a 200' tower full of stacked beams is "ok"..but 5 kw into a dipole is a "no-no" ?  That's really abt as silly as it gets.

## dunno what happened to the DX-4..but it's no longer made.

## You are correct about radios though.  I wouldn't buy anything that came out new..and would wait at least 2 years min, till the bugs are out.    I have yet to own ANY xcvr that didn't require a TON of mods to get the damn thing to work correctly, bar none.  Both my MK-V's and my FT-1000D's  have a LOT of mods done to them. The Icoms are pure junk, and I have lost track of kenwood.  It's too bad.  2 x weeks ago I looked at the yaesu 9000MP [ 400watt version]. It sucks for $12,000.  TX imd is lousy.. -16db below one tone is laughable. [ IMD3].

## I'm done with buying new radios for a long time.  The yaesu 5000 isn't as cracked up as you think it is.  The rx in the yaesu 2000 is 5 x steps backwards. I'm not impressed with the dsp in my MK-V's  so shut the dsp OFF on both rx and TX.  Nobody seems to have the dsp auto notch feature working properly.  Sure it's gone in the headphone's.. but is still 30 over S-9 on the s-meter. meanwhile, my local icom dealer assures me the dsp is  "IF DSP" .  yeah, sure buddy, it's IF DSP alright, but it's OUTSIDE the agc loop ! It may as well be in the audio, for all the good it does.   They come out with all these new dsp xcvr's then the  next thing is the speech processors in all of em leave a bit to be desired.  You can't do real RF clipping in the digital domain.

later...Jim  VE7RF



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QRPNEW
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Posts: 51




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« Reply #212 on: January 06, 2012, 04:30:05 AM »

Wow 12000 dollars for a radio that has -16db 3rd order IMD, I have a Cobra Cb radio that has IMD  thats -36db below 3rd order.

DSP radios are very noise in noisy atmospheric conditions. My old analog radios kill them in this area alone.

In weak signal detection analog radios are better.

The new DSP radios also lack a decent audio amplifier they so weak and poor. You turn on a old radio and you can fill the house with audio.

DSP noise reduction is a waste of space on a radio. I do better with my ears 99% of the time.

Digital noise blankers are poor as well.

The AGC's in digital radios need a lot of improving. In CW pileups they are truly lousy they turn the pileup into one big mush. Even  DC receiver
does a better job on CW in pileups.  DC receiver on receive kills a DSP radio, the CW not is so much better on a good DC receiver.

I have never heard any DSP speech processor that is as effective as a proper RF clipper like the Datong. Someone is kidding someone
when they say a DSP processor is as good as a  RF clipper.

Digital radios will have their day of glory at the moment they really giving as lousy radios.  Every time I turn on a Collins or old Kenwood tube radio I go WOW how can this new stuff be so poor. The analog and hybrid tube tube radios sound so much better.

DSP radios cant handle RF field very well. You dont want to bring open wire feeders near a Flexradio!  The RF currents flowing over
everything will kill them fast. I can only imagine what would happen if you ran a California Kilowatt on open wire near a digital radio.

Then we need to talk about all the crud on the digital radio signals. The DSP grunge sounds terrible.

I wont mention TX IMD since this is a lost cause, the radios are in the toilet and wont be getting out any time soon! 12000 dollars for -16db 3rd order IMD is this a joke, or are you making this up? Thats -10db below one of two tones. I think that figure is wrong and sounds too low. Thats like a buying a radio with no IMD suppression at all, or the radio is faulty. If that figure is right its the perfect radio for clearing the band during contest, just get a  sweep tube tetrode amplifier and you will win  the worked all the worlds neighbors award.

I will stick with my QRP homebrew radios they are  the best and they cost be peanuts. I will give you peanuts for your 12000 dollar -16 db radio though, thats all its worth.






## You are correct about radios though.  I wouldn't buy anything that came out new..and would wait at least 2 years min, till the bugs are out.    I have yet to own ANY xcvr that didn't require a TON of mods to get the damn thing to work correctly, bar none.  Both my MK-V's and my FT-1000D's  have a LOT of mods done to them. The Icoms are pure junk, and I have lost track of kenwood.  It's too bad.  2 x weeks ago I looked at the yaesu 9000MP [ 400watt version]. It sucks for $12,000.  TX imd is lousy.. -16db below one tone is laughable. [ IMD3].

## I'm done with buying new radios for a long time.  The yaesu 5000 isn't as cracked up as you think it is.  The rx in the yaesu 2000 is 5 x steps backwards. I'm not impressed with the dsp in my MK-V's  so shut the dsp OFF on both rx and TX.  Nobody seems to have the dsp auto notch feature working properly.  Sure it's gone in the headphone's.. but is still 30 over S-9 on the s-meter. meanwhile, my local icom dealer assures me the dsp is  "IF DSP" .  yeah, sure buddy, it's IF DSP alright, but it's OUTSIDE the agc loop ! It may as well be in the audio, for all the good it does.   They come out with all these new dsp xcvr's then the  next thing is the speech processors in all of em leave a bit to be desired.  You can't do real RF clipping in the digital domain.

later...Jim  VE7RF



[/quote]
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VE7RF
Member

Posts: 212




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« Reply #213 on: January 06, 2012, 05:18:20 AM »


Wow 12000 dollars for a radio that has -16db 3rd order IMD, I have a Cobra Cb radio that has IMD  thats -36db below 3rd order.


##  No u got it wrong.  The 9000MP [400w version] IS  -22 db pep  for IMD3.. on both 80M and 10m.  [ and a lot better on the other bands].   -22 db pep is =  -16db below one tone.  You can read it urself in the qst write up.  The same xcvr will do 100 pep out in class A..and is superb.   But my mk-v will also do class A... albeit only at 75 w pep out..and runs extremely hot. [ no air going down between heat sinks 1+2..and ok on sinks 3+4]  designed by an idiot.  Now i like 80m..and with -22 db pep IMD3... I'd be run outa town.

##  The DSP  Rx + TX in the MK-V is pure junk imo...so I leave it off.  When i toggle  from analog ssb  to dsp ssb  on TX.. the noise floor INCREASES by 21 db !!   The mk-v is the last xcvr that will generate a ssb signal using either analog OR dsp.   The new stuff is strictly dsp.   The "processor" in the MK-V is NOT dsp based.  It merely screws  with the alc time constants . That way it works with either analog or dsp ssb.  It works quite well.  Now the processor in my 1000-d is a real rf clipper.

##  perhaps if they went to  A 40 BIT FLOATING POINT SET UP..AND USED 24 BIT/96 KHZ SAMPLE RATE, THEN U MIGHT END UP WITH SOME KINDA DSP THAT ACTUALLY WORKS.  As is, I can easily pick out any icom pro1/2/7800  just by ear.  They all have this distinct "digital grunge " sound to em.  A buddy sez it's tx imd. I say it's digital artifact crap.   What folks forget is..when u do the analog to digital conversion in these radios.. u digitize both the desired signal + the band noise /qrm/power line noise etc.  You end up with homogeneous mush.  That do the digital to analog conversion..and it makes for a lousy rendition of the original analog signal.

##  The  1.5 watt @ 15% thd distortion audio amps in these megabuck radios is a joke.  I bypass all of it..and tap off the ANALOG product detector with a 220 uf cap..then feed to rear panel rca jack..then external, for real amplification...like 50 w per channel into studio, near field monitors..at ear level.  For headphones, I use a proper class A 4 x channel headphone amp.

#  The mic pre-amp in the yaesu is more junk.  I feed the analog balanced modulator directly, via another 220 uf cap..and drive it  with external rack gear.  U only have two things going on in a xcvr..audio in..and audio out..and yaesu has managed to screw em both up.  So no, I don't need a $12K  headache right now. That's just 1 more rig that would have to be modified.   None of this good  rx perfomance does any good on ssb anyway..not with the lousy imd from everybody's TX.

Later... Jim  VE7RF     
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W6RMK
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Posts: 648




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« Reply #214 on: January 06, 2012, 08:46:48 AM »

My... what a lot of disconnected issues.. And in a thread about IMD.

But, since you got on the DSP thing..


DSP radios are very noise in noisy atmospheric conditions. My old analog radios kill them in this area alone.
There's no inherent reason why a DSP would be better or worse. more likely, you *prefer* the sound of your analog radio, which is determined by its fillters and audio path.   This is much like the vinyl/cd "warmth of analog" argument.

Quote
In weak signal detection analog radios are better.
Funny thing.  Deep space comm uses digital, and that's about the weakest signals around.  I think, again, you're talking about "when you combine the radio with the human detector with years of experience, you prefer that combination".   
Quote
The new DSP radios also lack a decent audio amplifier they so weak and poor. You turn on a old radio and you can fill the house with audio.
That's a design decision of the manufacturer, not inherent to DSP. I think it's more that they want small compact radios. My IC-7000 has a wretchedly tiny speaker, but then, I don't use it. I use an external speaker, or run it through the car stereo.  Are we buying radios to communicate or to fill the house with glorious monophonic sound? When you had to have a half dozen tubes, a whole chain of tuned transformers, and all the power transformers to heat the filaments and provide plate and grid supplies, having a big speaker isn't a big deal.

Quote
DSP noise reduction is a waste of space on a radio. I do better with my ears 99% of the time.
Digital noise blankers are poor as well.
DSP NR is a waste *for you*, because you prefer the sound and detection properties of the analog radio you are familiar with; and that meets your other (unstated) requirements. You post under QRPNEW, so I'm going to guess that a full 19" rack of gear isn't something you would consider appropriate, no matter how good it was.  And that's fine.   I will say that for something like ignition noise suppression when operating mobile, the DSP based version on my IC7000 blows away the analog version on my old FT757.


Quote
The AGC's in digital radios need a lot of improving. In CW pileups they are truly lousy they turn the pileup into one big mush. Even  DC receiver
does a better job on CW in pileups.  DC receiver on receive kills a DSP radio, the CW not is so much better on a good DC receiver.
You are conflating DSP, in general, with specific implementations. The beauty of DSP (and software defined approaches in general) is that one can conceivably duplicate (or better) ANY particular analog implementation.  The fact that commercial manufacturers have not done this is more a reflection of their perception of market demand.  In days of yore, people would modify their receivers.. swap out filters, change the time constant on the AGC, etc.  Today, there's just a start of doing that for DSP. 

Quote
I have never heard any DSP speech processor that is as effective as a proper RF clipper like the Datong. Someone is kidding someone
when they say a DSP processor is as good as a  RF clipper.
You're tarring all DSP with a brush based on specific instances.  THere's no reason why one could not build a DSP processor that would provide identical performance to the RF clipper.  If one doesn't exist, it's because nobody is willing to pay for it.
Quote
Digital radios will have their day of glory at the moment they really giving as lousy radios.  Every time I turn on a Collins or old Kenwood tube radio I go WOW how can this new stuff be so poor. The analog and hybrid tube tube radios sound so much better.
Vinyl vs CD, tube vs transistor.  There ARE differences in sound. There ARE preferences. But they're not inherently because it's digital.  30 years from now, people will go, "how did anyone tolerate that horrible IMD from those uncompensated tube/transistor rigs".  And there will be people restoring AM transmitters from the 40s basking in the glow of the filaments and that rich, warm broadcast sound.
Quote
DSP radios cant handle RF field very well. You dont want to bring open wire feeders near a Flexradio!  The RF currents flowing over
everything will kill them fast. I can only imagine what would happen if you ran a California Kilowatt on open wire near a digital radio.
That has nothing to do with DSP, and everything to do with general "box design". In the commercial world, they run 50kW broadcast transmitters which use DSP, next to monitor receivers which use DSP, and have no problems.  Perhaps you've used a modern (or even not so modern.. old HP 8563s for that matter) spectrum analyzer?  Pretty much all DSP after the first mixer, and I don't recall them having any particular problems with RF fields.  In a cost constrained market (i.e. ham radio), maybe the manufacturer doesn't spend as much on shielding and case design as they might. Maybe they don't want their radio to weigh 100 lbs. Lots of things drive design decisions, and it's entirely possible that a cheap DSP based rig will be worse than a cheap analog rig.  But you don't want to be comparing fit and finish of a Yugo against a Rolls Royce..
Quote
Then we need to talk about all the crud on the digital radio signals. The DSP grunge sounds terrible.
Are we talking digital radio in the PSK31 sense, or signals generated by radios which use DSP in the audio path.  No question that DSP is like a chainsaw.. it's a tool with the potential for damage and misuse.  Some implementations are significantly worse than others.   At least in the analog world, the truly bad designs have withered away and died a justly deserved death.  Not many people are using carbon granule mics any more.

Quote
I wont mention TX IMD since this is a lost cause, the radios are in the toilet and wont be getting out any time soon! 12000 dollars for -16db 3rd order IMD is this a joke, or are you making this up? Thats -10db below one of two tones. I think that figure is wrong and sounds too low. Thats like a buying a radio with no IMD suppression at all, or the radio is faulty. If that figure is right its the perfect radio for clearing the band during contest, just get a  sweep tube tetrode amplifier and you will win  the worked all the worlds neighbors award.

I will stick with my QRP homebrew radios they are  the best and they cost be peanuts. I will give you peanuts for your 12000 dollar -16 db radio though, thats all its worth.

That's your subjective opinion. Others have other opinions. You might want to consider that since you're operating QRP, you have several design advantages:
1) spurious signals are below the noise floor.  If you took your transmitter output and ran it through a *perfect* 30dB amplifier, what would people be saying about your signals?
2) you're probably optimizing for power consumption and size. Since you're radiating a watt, you don't need to worry quite as much about good DC power efficiency in the final stage.. Heck, you can run Class A.  This probably isn't a viable alternative for someone who wants to run a kilowatt and doesn't want to have a 5kVA power supply.

Other people have different desires. And the manufacturers respond to those desires.   Getting back to the original subject of the thread, the real question is how to encourage the manufacturers to realize that there is a *desire* for decent IMD performance.  Given the prevalence of modern signal processing in most large volume radios, I think that DSP is going to be the solution, rather than the problem.

But then, I'm biased: I make my living with high performance radios, most of which have a big software component.  As much as I appreciate the elegance of a clean all analog design, for the vast majority of applications, a digital approach is going to provide a superior result, on whatever metric you decide to use and optimize the design for.  And it will only get better, since Moore's law helps digital get better, particularly in mass production equipment destined for amateur radio.

One of the most attractive aspects of amateur radio is that you can still experiment. You can build your low functionality, high performance, all analog radio and use it. For rock-bottom power, mass, volume, all analog designs tend to be where you go... I'm not sure a SDR is a good fit for a wildlife tracking beacon that has to weigh less than a few grams)



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M0HCN
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Posts: 473




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« Reply #215 on: January 06, 2012, 03:17:05 PM »

Yep, nothing at all wrong with DSP if it is done right. Bear in mind however that a lot of the early DSP rigs did not really have the number crunching power to do it right, and that does rather show.

DSP in a transmitter provides several potential advantages over an all analogue set, and there is no real problem building almost arbitrarily sophisticated speech processors in a DSP and that things like I/Q Pair generation are really trivial where they are not in the analogue domain. Then you have some advanced tricks that DSP enables which would be very difficult in the analogue domain, error function keying, dynamic bias and envelope tracking power supplies for the finals are just the start.   

It does take a rather different design approach then an analogue rig, and there should probably still be a fair amount of tricky analogue up in the front end and IF amplifiers. Direct digital conversion is still not IMHO quite good enough to get state of the art performance, you really need a hybrid.

RF Field problems are more of a symptom of poor EMC design then any kind of inherent problem with the technology, and we can all think of radios that needed rather a lot of ferrite adding to get them to behave around high field strengths.

Picastar (A DIY Project in Radcom a few years back) is an implementation of a DSP IF rig for the HF bands that gets a very good write up for the quality of the audio on both transmit and receive.

Regards, Dan.
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #216 on: January 27, 2012, 06:32:05 AM »


##  "Zenki" can never display his callsign  for a specific reason.  Only I know who he really is.  Suffice to say he's the real deal..and no BS artist.  His true identity can never be revealed.

Later... Jim  VE7RF

Are you sure you are the only one that knows his "true identity"?  Why can't his "true identity" be revealed? Roll Eyes

Isn't John, N2NEP aka "plebian99" aka "Zenki" the Station Manager and Chief Engineer of WUHF in Rochester, NY?  

Gene
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 06:34:37 AM by KE5JPP » Logged
VE7RF
Member

Posts: 212




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« Reply #217 on: January 27, 2012, 07:11:49 AM »


##  "Zenki" can never display his callsign  for a specific reason.  Only I know who he really is.  Suffice to say he's the real deal..and no BS artist.  His true identity can never be revealed.

Later... Jim  VE7RF

Are you sure you are the only one that knows his "true identity"?  Why can't his "true identity" be revealed? Roll Eyes

Isn't John, N2NEP aka "plebian99" aka "Zenki" the Station Manager and Chief Engineer of WUHF in Rochester, NY?  

Gene

##  Nah, ur not even close.  Plebian 99 lives in Europe.   Zenki is just his evil twin  IMD3 brother ! 

later... Jim  VE7RF
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KE5JPP
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Posts: 0




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« Reply #218 on: January 27, 2012, 07:35:28 AM »


##  "Zenki" can never display his callsign  for a specific reason.  Only I know who he really is.  Suffice to say he's the real deal..and no BS artist.  His true identity can never be revealed.

Later... Jim  VE7RF

Are you sure you are the only one that knows his "true identity"?  Why can't his "true identity" be revealed? Roll Eyes

Isn't John, N2NEP aka "plebian99" aka "Zenki" the Station Manager and Chief Engineer of WUHF in Rochester, NY?  

Gene

##  Nah, ur not even close.  Plebian 99 lives in Europe.   Zenki is just his evil twin  IMD3 brother !  

later... Jim  VE7RF

Yeah, sure...  Roll Eyes  (Not that I'd expect you to admit the truth.)

Gene
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 07:37:34 AM by KE5JPP » Logged
VE7RF
Member

Posts: 212




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« Reply #219 on: January 27, 2012, 07:45:57 AM »


##  "Zenki" can never display his callsign  for a specific reason.  Only I know who he really is.  Suffice to say he's the real deal..and no BS artist.  His true identity can never be revealed.

Later... Jim  VE7RF

Are you sure you are the only one that knows his "true identity"?  Why can't his "true identity" be revealed? Roll Eyes

Isn't John, N2NEP aka "plebian99" aka "Zenki" the Station Manager and Chief Engineer of WUHF in Rochester, NY?  

Gene

##  Nah, ur not even close.  Plebian 99 lives in Europe.   Zenki is just his evil twin  IMD3 brother !  

later... Jim  VE7RF

Yeah, sure...  Roll Eyes  (Not that I'd expect you to admit the truth.)

Gene

##  They are 2 x separate guys, really.   Plebian 99 lives in Austria....and that's as much as I'm allowed to say.

Jim  VE7RF
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #220 on: January 27, 2012, 08:12:18 AM »


##  "Zenki" can never display his callsign  for a specific reason.  Only I know who he really is.  Suffice to say he's the real deal..and no BS artist.  His true identity can never be revealed.

Later... Jim  VE7RF

Are you sure you are the only one that knows his "true identity"?  Why can't his "true identity" be revealed? Roll Eyes

Isn't John, N2NEP aka "plebian99" aka "Zenki" the Station Manager and Chief Engineer of WUHF in Rochester, NY?  

Gene

##  Nah, ur not even close.  Plebian 99 lives in Europe.   Zenki is just his evil twin  IMD3 brother !  

later... Jim  VE7RF

Yeah, sure...  Roll Eyes  (Not that I'd expect you to admit the truth.)

Gene

##  They are 2 x separate guys, really.   Plebian 99 lives in Austria....and that's as much as I'm allowed to say.

Jim  VE7RF

Sure, sure, sure, so "plebian99" and "Zenki" are two different guys supposedly.  Roll Eyes But "Zenki" is John, N2NEP.

You claim "plebian99" lives in Austria, but that's all you are allowed to say, and you claim "zenki" is the "real deal" but his identity is only known to you and that's all you are allowed to say.  H'mmm...  something doesn't sound quite right. Roll Eyes

Gene
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 12:11:58 PM by KE5JPP » Logged
ZENKI
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Posts: 906




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« Reply #221 on: January 28, 2012, 02:33:59 AM »

I will produce my tax returns, iris scan, and birth certificate at the next presidential debate!

Its only a hobby. You unfortunately dragging the wrong persons identity through the mud. If you want to play  amateur detective you better be sure of your facts before you tarnish some poor guys call sign unnecessarily.
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #222 on: January 28, 2012, 07:52:30 AM »

I will produce my tax returns, iris scan, and birth certificate at the next presidential debate!

Its only a hobby. You unfortunately dragging the wrong persons identity through the mud. If you want to play  amateur detective you better be sure of your facts before you tarnish some poor guys call sign unnecessarily.

Actually, John aka "Zenki", this is one of the very few times (only time?) that you have responded when someone has mentioned your identity.  I'd say that is pretty telling and that I have hit the nail on the head (so to speak).

Also, how is identifying you as John "dragging the wrong persons identity through the mud" and "tarnish(ing) some poor guys call sign unnecessarily", unless you consider your own postings "mud" and "tarnish"?  Is it because you say such things hiding behind an anonymous name like "zenki" or "plebian99"?

Gene
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 08:28:52 AM by KE5JPP » Logged
N0YXB
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Posts: 298




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« Reply #223 on: January 28, 2012, 11:48:44 AM »

Zenki's identity really isn't that important to me.  At least he doesn't act as a troll, like a couple of well known posters who use their call signs when they post.  I don't always agree with him, but I am glad that he contributes to this site.
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Vince
KE5JPP
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« Reply #224 on: January 28, 2012, 01:28:19 PM »

Zenki's identity really isn't that important to me.  At least he doesn't act as a troll, like a couple of well known posters who use their call signs when they post.  I don't always agree with him, but I am glad that he contributes to this site.

He uses his cowardly anonymity to bad mouth every manufacturer under the sun whether deserving or not, bad mouths home builders of Ham equipment, and generally puts down or talks crap about Hams in general.  If someone is going to do that they should at least have the balls to use their name instead of hiding like a coward.  It makes his credibility very low, at least.

He bad mouths CBers, yet he uses a CB type handle like "Zenki".  Roll Eyes

Gene
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 01:29:50 PM by KE5JPP » Logged
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