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Author Topic: Should contesters on CW send at speeds way above 20WPM  (Read 12863 times)
N3QE
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Posts: 2135




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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 03:56:01 AM »

RufzXP http://rufzxp.net/ does not use random generated calls, but rather get actual call-signs from the pool.
You have a point, but it tends towards the most complicated (often one slash... and way too often double slash) and long, with a skew that does not reflect what somebody either S&P'ing or running in a contest actually hears.

e.g. most US contester's callsigns are just going to be 4 letters.

Now there are several very important stations every contest that do have a slash in their callsigns.

As a training tool RufZXP is actually probably pretty good, tending towards the more complex and penalizing you if you don't get it first time.

Quote
Its a matter of fact. Most of the top runners in the contest DO use computer receive

Skimmer is a powerful tool for those using it in assisted. But it never replaces CW copying ability except in the most asinine situations. It's there to give a band awareness.

Quote
As for slowing down, well stats not favoring slow operators. Percentage-wise, loss of points by wasting time on one, two contacts negligible, comparing to possibility of loosing frequency with all ramifications. Usually stations keep second chair some where 30-50 kHz above the band edge on the second day to pick up plankton. Contests NEVER been fair from the day one, so that argument irrelevant. Thats it folks :-D

I had observed many super-big-gun contesters go to the rate extreme in the late 2000's and stick there no matter what. But lately... most of them back down a little bit from the rate-only extreme attitude at least after things slow down below, say, 140 QSO's  per hour :-).

I myself like to think I'm a polite CW contester when I'm running (e.g. ID'ing except when there's a line-up) and there's several contests every year where my peak rate running is 110+ QSO's per hour sustained over a few hours. For me that's a notably high rate; for a mega contest station op, that's a low rate!

Tim.
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K0TF
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Posts: 1




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« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2011, 09:01:51 AM »

RufzXP http://rufzxp.net/ does not use random generated calls, but rather get actual call-signs from the pool.
You have a point, but it tends towards the most complicated (often one slash... and way too often double slash) and long, with a skew that does not reflect what somebody either S&P'ing or running in a contest actually hears.

e.g. most US contester's callsigns are just going to be 4 letters.

Now there are several very important stations every contest that do have a slash in their callsigns.

As a training tool RufZXP is actually probably pretty good, tending towards the more complex and penalizing you if you don't get it first time.

Quote
Its a matter of fact. Most of the top runners in the contest DO use computer receive

Skimmer is a powerful tool for those using it in assisted. But it never replaces CW copying ability except in the most asinine situations. It's there to give a band awareness.

Quote
As for slowing down, well stats not favoring slow operators. Percentage-wise, loss of points by wasting time on one, two contacts negligible, comparing to possibility of loosing frequency with all ramifications. Usually stations keep second chair some where 30-50 kHz above the band edge on the second day to pick up plankton. Contests NEVER been fair from the day one, so that argument irrelevant. Thats it folks :-D

I myself like to think I'm a polite CW contester when I'm running (e.g. ID'ing except when there's a line-up) and there's several contests every year where my peak rate running is 110+ QSO's per hour sustained over a few hours. For me that's a notably high rate; for a mega contest station op, that's a low rate!

Tim.

Well, it has nothing to do with politeness, but software settings, if software set up to transmit at the same speed as last received transmission you'll get "courtesy" of slowing down. If not then you have it.

As for use of computerized RX, well speak for yourselves, If you don't have capability for computerized RX, then you (or people you know) don't use it. Burt fact remains most of them do use specialized software for computerized RX. And I'm not talking about cheap stuff available and developed by amateurs. As for equipment, the only things left its a box and name plate on the front panel. Bandpass (or new - name) roofing filters, switchable x-tal filters BEFORE the radio, modified mixers etc etc etc. When and if you'll ever get a chance to hear modified radio, even in the contest you'll understand.
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K3STX
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Posts: 971




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« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2011, 09:32:38 AM »

Burt fact remains most of them do use specialized software for computerized RX.

This is COMPLETELY wrong! Why do you find it difficult to believe that I can copy at 60 wpm and type it in using my brain? Even the QRQ guys having casual QSOs at 80+ wpm are using their brains.

I am certainly no big-time contester, but I hang around with them. I am a member of PVRC, I know something about contesting. I can not imagine ANYONE in the top 25 in ANY major category of a major contest relies on anything OTHER than his/her brain to get a call correct. Clicking on a Skimmer spot and confirming it with your brain is not what we are talking about, we are talking about using a computer to decode Morse WHILE RUNNING. I assure you, while some casual contest ops might do it (to their peril), no serious op does.

Let's end this foolishness. Tune to around 7020 kc any morning, those 80 wpm QRQ guys are using keyboards to send and their brain to receive. I promise you.

paul
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K0TF
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Posts: 1




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« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2011, 09:47:02 AM »



This is COMPLETELY wrong! Why do you find it difficult to believe that I can copy at 60 wpm and type it in using my brain? Even the QRQ guys having casual QSOs at 80+ wpm are using their brains.

Let's end this foolishness. Tune to around 7020 kc any morning, those 80 wpm QRQ guys are using keyboards to send and their brain to receive. I promise you.

paul
I don't, http://rufzxp.net/toplist.htm . Using computer has nothing to do with abilities, its all about timing, shaving off few seconds on every QSO, and not falling off the chair after 4hours shift... CONVENIENCE, ever heard about that? And please get real, try to keep rate of 3-4 QSO a minute for hours and after that tell me, simple speed of human reaction will limit you, get numbers - 0.75 seconds to get information to the brain, another 0.75 seconds to get it to your hand, and so on...  Don't hang around them, run couple of shifts... :-D Don't promise, just do it...:-D
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K3STX
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« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2011, 04:54:22 PM »

Do you honestly believe that ANY of the ops at PJ2T this weekend or at W3LPL or K3LR use machines to decode CW?

and you can't just "do a shift", you have to be invited.

Paul
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K0TF
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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2011, 07:25:47 PM »

Do you honestly believe that ANY of the ops at PJ2T this weekend or at W3LPL or K3LR use machines to decode CW?

and you can't just "do a shift", you have to be invited.

Paul
I'm guessing you weren't ... World just little bit bigger...
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K3STX
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Posts: 971




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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2011, 07:54:04 PM »


and you can't just "do a shift", you have to be invited.

Paul
I'm guessing you weren't ... World just little bit bigger...

Correct, I have never been invited to operate at one of the major multi-multi's. I am not good enough. Maybe it's cuz I don't know how to operate a code reader, I never thought of that reason Grin Smiley

I don't get the second part of your comment, however.

Paul
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N3QE
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Posts: 2135




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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2011, 05:11:53 AM »

As for use of computerized RX, well speak for yourselves, If you don't have capability for computerized RX, then you (or people you know) don't use it. Burt fact remains most of them do use specialized software for computerized RX.

I think you are confabulating mystical abilities into computerized logging or maybe computerized logging+RBN/skimmer+a good set of spotting filters.

Those are powerful tools and when I run assisted, I use RBN for sure. But don't ever presume that it's replacing the ears.

I know a couple old timers that still don't do computer logging even in the big tests, all they need is Op Aid 6 to find the dupes :-). (I never was that good at using Op Aid 6!)
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N2EY
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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2011, 05:46:26 AM »

I think there should be an "Iron Op" category in contests.

Qualifications:

1) Single op only - no help from anyone. No spotting nets, clusters, etc.

2) Paper logs & dupes only

3) Mechanical keying devices only - no keyers, keyboards, etc. Mechanical CQ wheel OK.

4) No code readers of any kind except between-the-ears wetware.

5) Separate tx/rx or single-VFO-with RIT transceiver only. No frequency or band memories.

6) No ATUs or any other, similar automatic devices.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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K3STX
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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2011, 05:49:48 AM »

I don't think K0TF was talking about big-time contesters using dedicated Skimmers or others' Skimmer spots/DX spots populating their bandmaps to find QSOs. Everyone knows you can do that. Everyone also knows every spot you see you have to take with a grain of salt cuz skimmers make mistakes (W1SJ was spotted as EW1SJ all contest long during the 160 meter contest). And he is not talking about computer logging, everyone knows you can do that too.

He is saying big-time contesters use a computer to DECODE Morse while they are running! He also said that computer decoding during runs is necessary because one can not continue to run for hours on end at 150+/minute WITHOUT some decoding; the brain just can't handle it. Maybe that's not what he meant, but that is what he said. All we are saying (those who think this is wrong) is that big-time contesters do NOT use code readers/computers to decode Morse during their runs. Some guys are lazy, click on Skimmer spots without confirming the callsign of the guy. That is stupid, but that is up to them. But big-time contest ops don't want to get dinged with a busted call, they don't rely on computers to decode Morse.

Maybe we are all talking about different things, maybe that is why K0TF is do adamant.

paul
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K3STX
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« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2011, 05:53:07 AM »

I think there should be an "Iron Op" category in contests.

Qualifications:

1) Single op only - no help from anyone. No spotting nets, clusters, etc.

2) Paper logs & dupes only

3) Mechanical keying devices only - no keyers, keyboards, etc. Mechanical CQ wheel OK.

4) No code readers of any kind except between-the-ears wetware.

5) Separate tx/rx or single-VFO-with RIT transceiver only. No frequency or band memories.

6) No ATUs or any other, similar automatic devices.

73 de Jim, N2EY

I am all in favor of all of that except I would like to KEEP manual antenna tuners in this category (many guys have one antenna and a tuner to allow multi-band use) and I would also like to keep a dual VFO transceiver in this category. Even my 25 year old TS-850S has dual VFOs.

Dual RECEIVE is different than dual VFO, but I would not be able to operate in this category with my current station. But I think it is a  great idea. How about wire antennas? (not wire beams?)

paul
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AB9NZ
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« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2011, 09:08:42 AM »

Wow, very cool idea Jim. I don't think it would be too big a deal to add this category to all the major contests. I think having a rig with the fancy stuff should be OK, just not using those features. This could draw even contest haters (there's a tiny bit of one in me Sad) into the fray. I think you'd be a great rep to lobby the contest sanctioning bodies with your plan.
   Very best regards, 73 de Tom, AB9NZ http://radiotelegrapher.posterous.com/
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N2EY
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« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2011, 10:30:32 AM »


I am all in favor of all of that except I would like to KEEP manual antenna tuners in this category (many guys have one antenna and a tuner to allow multi-band use) and I would also like to keep a dual VFO transceiver in this category. Even my 25 year old TS-850S has dual VFOs.

Dual RECEIVE is different than dual VFO, but I would not be able to operate in this category with my current station. But I think it is a  great idea. How about wire antennas? (not wire beams?)

By "ATU" I meant "automatic" - should have been more clear. Of course manually-tuned Transmatches would be OK.

I'm on the fence about the dual-VFO thing. Have to draw the line somewhere! Perhaps the rule would be that you can have it but not use it. On your honor.

OTOH, a true Iron Op would do what was needed to qualify, such as fixing up an old rig that met the requirements. Corsair II, anyone?

Limitation to wire antennas rules out verticals but allows wire beams and other gain antennas. Not really workable. (Besides, for most contests, which would you rather have: a 3 el trap tribander at 30 feet, a ground-mounted vertical, or an 80 meter open-wire-fed dipole at 70 feet? I'd take the dipole any day!)

Perhaps the solution would be that antennas could not exceed a certain size and height - maybe in wavelengths rather than feet?

Amplifiers are a whole 'nother question, too.

It would be really interesting to see the results....

73 de Jim, N2EY
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AE4RV
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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2011, 10:49:43 AM »

The NAQCC sprint that I worked last night meets several of these requirements and the speeds were straight key friendly, though I used a tamed bug...
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N3QE
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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2011, 02:23:40 PM »

OTOH, a true Iron Op would do what was needed to qualify, such as fixing up an old rig that met the requirements. Corsair II, anyone?
Look up my 2008 ARRL DX, NAQP, and SS scores. I did that with a HW-16 and a HG-10B VFO and paper logging :-).

Admittedly it doesn't take a lot of bells and whistles to run a frequency on 40M or 80M in NAQP or SS.

Tim.
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