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Author Topic: TS850 new microphone amplifier & ESSB  (Read 2915 times)
9H1FQ
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Posts: 144




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« on: February 03, 2012, 03:24:18 AM »

I need to fit an external microphone amplifier and compressor to my TS850. Where shall I connect it at the rear ? Do I need to set the software ?

Also, I do not have the DSP100, but I have heard, that I can still improve the audio quality of my transmission by adjusting the  8mhz tx filter to 6 khz. Can I do this, without upsetting the other settings ?
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An unknown gem of the Mediterranean sea is the Island of Malta. blessed with warm sun , all year round.
In just one day, you can see places which will make you travel in history from the Prehistoric temples throu the middle ages, the Knights of Malta, all the way to world war two. All the major civ
N4CR
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Posts: 1665




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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 05:54:34 PM »

Call Julius at W2IHY Technologies and ask him about the EQplus product and which cable fits your radio and your microphone.

http://www.w2ihy.com/eqplus.asp

I never get anything but good reports.
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73 de N4CR, Phil

We are Coulomb of Borg. Resistance is futile. Voltage, on the other hand, has potential.
VA7CPC
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Posts: 2377




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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 11:06:23 PM »

If you haven't done it already, join the ESSB group on Yahoo --

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ssbaudio/

You'll get more suggestions than you can handle.

                 Charles

PS -- since I don't own your rig, I'll refrain from making general suggestions.  But you should understand that ESSB is a melding of traditional ham radio with "audio engineering".  You'll have to learn some of the audio engineering stuff before you can make informed decisions about what to buy, and how to put it together, and how to set the gazillion knobs (or virtual knobs) that it will have.

PPS - one solution to your problem is to plug a microphone into a "voice channel" which includes a mic preamp, EQ, noise gate, and compressor.   Lots of experience with those on the Yahoo group.   [Oops -- that broke my promise . . . ] 
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9H1FQ
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Posts: 144




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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 01:51:32 AM »

I know about the yahoo group. Not much activity thou.
Still, I did work as a sound engineer, some years ago.
Many, if not all ham radio manufacturers, authors, and homebrewers, neglect the audio chain, as if anything goes here !
Homebrewers and authors keep on using noisy, distorted chips like the Lm380/386, despite some mods. Try shutting off any  rf/if  gain in modern transcievers, and open the af volume up !
Most mics advertised for SSB, have  restricted bandwidth, but the eq should be made in a proper equalizer, not in the mic ! We should aim at lowest noise, distortion etc at audio or rf level.
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An unknown gem of the Mediterranean sea is the Island of Malta. blessed with warm sun , all year round.
In just one day, you can see places which will make you travel in history from the Prehistoric temples throu the middle ages, the Knights of Malta, all the way to world war two. All the major civ
VE7RF
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Posts: 212




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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 01:56:43 AM »

I need to fit an external microphone amplifier and compressor to my TS850. Where shall I connect it at the rear ? Do I need to set the software ?

Also, I do not have the DSP100, but I have heard, that I can still improve the audio quality of my transmission by adjusting the  8mhz tx filter to 6 khz. Can I do this, without upsetting the other settings ?


##  yes, join the yahoo essb group.  Also check out the TS-850 mods on NU9N.com's site. I'm almost certain you can't TX out to 6 khz..without the mating DSP-100.   The DSP-100 is getting pretty rare.  Another xcvr that's  dead simple to modify to 6 khz TX is the yaesu FT-1000MP, that came out around 1996.   Another one is the yaesu FT-1000MP-MK  and also the FT-1000MP/field models.  Stock with no mods at all, they will do 6 khz RX. Dead simple to make em TX out to 6 khz. All that's required is the  5.7 khz wide collins 455 khz filter from inrad..and also the 6 khz xtal filter [8315 khz IF]  also from Inrad.  The 455 filter just plugs in.  The 8315 filter is soldered in.  That entire procedure for the MK-V/field / plane jane MP  is on NU9N.com's website.  W5CUL and myself wrote the 90+ page procedure..that also includes the correct alignment procedure, all the various menu tweaks,simple TCXO alignment procedure, how to install the filters..and how to re-use the old 2.4 filters, next door [ in the 2.0 slots]. Also included is how to feed the audio from the rack gear directly into the ANALOG balanced modulator. Also included in that write up is how to adjust the eq, so you can set the TX BW  from 3 khz to 6 khz, in 500hz increments.

## For what you will spend with the IHY gear, you can get a much bigger bang for the buck using outboard rack gear. The IHY gear will not go past 3.2 khz..so it' limited in it's capability.[it's useless on any xcvr that has 6 khz TX BW]  The standard 2 x channel rack gear is used as "dual mono"..meaning the left channel is used for TX...leaving the right channel to be used on RX. The Behringer DEQ-2496 mastering processor has everything built into it, including 64 x pre-sets, 15 graphic eq adjustments, 10 x parametric eq adjustments, a limiter, and also a 3 x band, split band compressor.+ a built in real time spectrum analyzer. The SA can be switched from input side to output side, so you can see the effects of the processing chain.  It's a powerful box, with 2 x 40 bit processor's and 2 x 32 bit processors. And all for < $300.00  The only other thing you need is a mic pre-amp, and a real mic. That boost the level up to "line level" so u can drive any outboard rack gear.  At the tail end, a 20 db pad is used to drop the levl back down..then it's fed into the analog BM.

##  The IHY gear is plug + play..but you will soon find that's it's capabilities are maxed out real soon.   Their are loads of folks on ESSB with 850's.  Get on both suggested sites..and do a lot of reading 1st..and ask loads of question.. BEFORE you buy anything else. If you do go the yaesu route, I have loads of the special panasonic SU series coupling caps that are used to couple to the analog BM. I ship those caps all over the planet.

later.. Jim  VE7RF
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VE7RF
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Posts: 212




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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 02:54:23 AM »

I know about the yahoo group. Not much activity thou.
Still, I did work as a sound engineer, some years ago.
Many, if not all ham radio manufacturers, authors, and homebrewers, neglect the audio chain, as if anything goes here !
Homebrewers and authors keep on using noisy, distorted chips like the Lm380/386, despite some mods. Try shutting off any  rf/if  gain in modern transceiver's, and open the af volume up !
Most mics advertised for SSB, have  restricted bandwidth, but the eq should be made in a proper equalizer, not in the mic ! We should aim at lowest noise, distortion etc at audio or rf level.

### The stock yaesu built in mic pre-amps are pure junk..and noisy.  The yaseu stock 1.5 watt AF amps are more junk.  We bypass all that crap.  On TX, we feed quasi line level directly into the analog BM on TX..via a cap. [ the cap is required so we don't unbalance the BM].  On RX... we use another cap..and tap directly off the analog ssb product detector.  This low level signal is routed externally, then amplified.  I use a 50w per channel audio amp and monitor speakers for that job.  If using headphones, I use a 4 x channel headphone amp [class A].

##  Ham mics are more junk. The imd + THD is through the roof on all of em.  Use a real mic...with a balanced output.  From the mic.and all through the rack gear is all balanced. At the final output, we pad it down..then it goes through a balanced to unbalanced audio xfmr....[like a jensen].  The unbalanced portion then feeds the xcvr.   Myself, I use a RE-27 mic, in a shock mount. [ u are dead in the water without a shock mount].  You can see my set up on qrz.com

In the meantime, go to    http://www.nu9n.com/home.html  and do lots of reading. Everything you want to know is on that site.   Check this box out too..it's a killer   http://www.aphex.com/products/channel/ This box is called a voice processor. It's a single channel device, includes the mic pre-amp, etc.  The optical big bottom enhances the bottom end and increase tghe average levle, without using eq.  The parametric eq does the mid range.  The aural exciter adds harmonics to the top end [and really improves clarity].  It also has insert jacks on the rear..so if you want more precise EQ, etc, you can insert an outboard EQ..like a DEQ-2496, etc..into the chain. Those 2 x box's, correctly set up, will blow away every broadcast station in your home town. l went off the deep end with this stuff..for an experiment..and also added digital reverb, and do a lot of processing on RX, and also added mixers etc. etc.  We ran hundreds of tests during a noisy summer time on 75m, at night..and found that by using just a tiny bit of reverb, that signals went from Q3 to Q5 at the other end, under marginal condx.  The transients get stretched a bit, and the ear perceived that as being louder.

If u were a former sound engineer, you are miles ahead of most.  Beware though.  You feed a dead flat response mic into typ ham gear..and you will not get a flat response on TX, you will end up with pumped up mid range mush. The eq procedure for  SSB is not like a recording studio.   Since the Behringer DEQ-2496 has 64 x memories/pre-sets... you can set up various EQ modes.  Like for USB/LSB/AM/FM..then again for DX/contesting, ragchew, ESSB 4 khz, essb 6 khz, etc, etc. Then it's real simple to change to a new pre-set.  And if you change mic's.. you will have to re-eq everything again.  If my buddy comes over, we have to re-eq  for his voice, as it's a lot different than mine. No big deal with 64 x memories.  You can  download the manuals for all this stuff too.

later... Jim  VE7RF
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9H1FQ
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Posts: 144




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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 02:58:53 AM »

Forget the theory for a while! Let’s be practical!

We often hear a pileup trying to work an elusive dx station. You can hear scores of   very  distorted  low frequency  voices, with  lack of tops !
Out of the blues, comes a rich, well equalized voice, with no compression, no punch,  just a clear , understandably almost hi-fi, nearly pro vocal !
And he get an answer from the dx station, even thou, the others were probably an S9 or so !!!!
Why do you think some hams prefer a mic from another? The difference is in the response. So to hell with the theory of 3Khz bandwidth!

Try fitting a professional 30Hz to 20Khz condenser microphone, instead of the so called ssb mics, and you will hear the difference!  3Khz or not, the difference will be there, and very very noticeable,  because we are talking in practice not theory !!!  If your aim at a final result of   3Khz, then you should  start your design for 6Khz  or more.  to compensate !! If you design for 3Khz, with all the filters, circuit losses etc, you finish up with 2 or even less Khz !!!

The  TS850  has a variable IF bandwidth from 12Khz down to 100hz (with optional filter). Today's ham bands are not so crowded, as used to be (except in an annoying contest) so opening the bandwidth is not going to harm anyone. Sometimes, closing the bandwidth causes a peak in the noise! ot to mention the noise caused by the insertion of the carrier to read ssb !

I intend to set up my TS850 with a Neuman, Sennheiser or AKG professional condenser mic, feeding a THAT1570 mic amp chip, with almost unmeasurable  distortion and noise. The main problem is how to bypass or eliminate the existing mic amp of the TS850

Ex European Sound Engineer !!!
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An unknown gem of the Mediterranean sea is the Island of Malta. blessed with warm sun , all year round.
In just one day, you can see places which will make you travel in history from the Prehistoric temples throu the middle ages, the Knights of Malta, all the way to world war two. All the major civ
VA7CPC
Member

Posts: 2377




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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 09:13:30 PM »

Quote
I intend to set up my TS850 with a Neuman, Sennheiser or AKG professional condenser mic, feeding a THAT1570 mic amp chip, with almost unmeasurable  distortion and noise. The main problem is how to bypass or eliminate the existing mic amp of the TS850


Isn't there a "DATA" input, straight to the modulator, for PACKET operation?

       Charles
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M0HCN
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Posts: 473




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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 11:30:26 AM »

Got to be a bit careful feeding the modulator directly.

The issue is that SSB envelope does NOT follow the baseband real signal envelope, so peak control needs to be done in the analytic domain, not the real one.
This is quite different to the transmitter protection limiting requirements for AM, DSB or FM operation, where peak limiting in the real domain will suffice.

Personally I like a good dynamic mic (Sometimes an RE20 from my mic locker), but whatever works for you.

Remember clarity is probably more important then absolute highest possible average power (at least most of the time), and that does NOT necessarily increase the occupied bandwidth much, it does however imply that compression, limiting and clipping should be kept to sane levels.
I would further note that gross changes in group delay through the IF filters can have a really detrimental effect on ineligibility (Can you tell I like the phasing method), and often a transmit filter closer to linear phase at the expense of stopband can sound  better (If of course the RX has suitable filtering, NOT even close to a given).

Be a little careful of the THAT corp mic preamp chips, very high gain bandwidth product, and IME they need some fairly heavy measures to keep top band and 80M out of them.

And finally, please if you are going here, do take the time to check for off frequency splatter, several things about wideband SSB make it more likely, avoidable, but more likely, so it behoves you to check. 

Regards, Dan.
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KG6YV
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Posts: 508




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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 10:42:03 AM »

IF your audio gear uses a line level output you will probably need a 20-40db pad between the audio gear and the transceiver.
This is true even if you use any rear panel jack on most modern transceivers.  I use a Behringer rack and bought a W2IHY adjustable 0-40db pad.   The pad output goes to the rear jack on my Ft-2000 or FT-1000D.  Without the pad, the audio gear overloads the transceiver input .   The pad is set somewhere around 30db and I get to set my mic gain around 11-12 o'clock.

FYI,

Greg
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N4CR
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Posts: 1665




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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 04:25:16 PM »

## For what you will spend with the IHY gear, you can get a much bigger bang for the buck using outboard rack gear. The IHY gear will not go past 3.2 khz..so it' limited in it's capability.[it's useless on any xcvr that has 6 khz TX BW]

later.. Jim  VE7RF

I spoke with Julius at the Orlando Hamcation Friday afternoon and asked him about this. He says he has a filter on the input to ramp off the response starting at 3.2khz, but by changing one cap you can make it as wide as you want.

He has offered this information in the past to amateurs who have called or written asking if it is possible. He says he'll write up the mod and put it on mods.dk to make it official when he gets a chance. If you don't see it on mods.dk, ask Julius directly and he will respond with the information it takes to give his gear a wider bandwidth.
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73 de N4CR, Phil

We are Coulomb of Borg. Resistance is futile. Voltage, on the other hand, has potential.
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