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Author Topic: Leaderboard Insanity with HK0NA Operation  (Read 8224 times)
KY6R
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 01:29:45 PM »

. . . I'd hasten to add that this is a case of managing one's expectations.

Amen.
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N3QE
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 01:36:33 PM »

"Others here view working DX as a way of testing their station's ability to break a pile-up. To the extent that several here view DX'ing as EXACTLY the same as busting a pile-up."

Evidently working DX is not what it used to be. I never considered this effort as a contest. CQWW, SS, etc are contests.

Most any contest, it doesn't make sense to try to slug it out in the pile-up. That's way too slow a way to rack up QSO's and mults. Still... many are just attracted to the pile-up.

Now, the 80th section in the SS for a clean sweep... that might be different. The pile-ups on the MB station running last year in the CW SS were perhaps the most horrific thing I ever heard. All the callers were near zero-beat!!!! I'm sure there was a good chunk of a gigawatt on that exact frequency!

Me? I had two MB stations call me while I was running! That's a lot more fun!
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KY6R
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »

"Others here view working DX as a way of testing their station's ability to break a pile-up. To the extent that several here view DX'ing as EXACTLY the same as busting a pile-up."

Evidently working DX is not what it used to be. I never considered this effort as a contest. CQWW, SS, etc are contests.

Most any contest, it doesn't make sense to try to slug it out in the pile-up. That's way too slow a way to rack up QSO's and mults. Still... many are just attracted to the pile-up.

I sneaked in on 80M before the big team arrived. It was easy - just a few calls at 3 AM PST. Lost some sleep - no biggie.

What was very strange was - the pileups were not as bad the week or so before the big team arrived as it was the DAY the team arrived. It sure did seem that the "pileup junkies" were in there slugging it away.

And then - just as fast as they swarmed in - after that first full day, the piles thinned out very quickly. So basically - I just sat it out the first day of the full team being there.

I guess its an adrenalin junkie (contester) sort of thing? I am not a contester and don't really like huge pileups - never have.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:06:19 PM by KY6R » Logged
KD8MJR
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 02:50:43 PM »

I sneaked in on 80M before the big team arrived. It was easy - just a few calls at 3 AM PST. Lost some sleep - no biggie.  

I agree with you and some of the other posters.  I was a little pistol for years and when I wanted a contact I went into little pistol mode which meant getting up at 3am or staying up till 1am to work a station when the traffic was low or the propagation was high. These crazy big gun complaints are absolutely amazing to me Roll Eyes

When I had my G5RV and FT-857D I got to about 150 countries but there were some new ones that I wanted to work desperately, one of them was India and the other China. I watched the Cluster and noticed that VU2ELJ frequented 14.190 at about 8pm EST, so I decided to listen out for him everyday. After the first week I had found him first, on three occasions and I managed to get across my Prefix on two of them but he never got my suffix so I kept trying. By the third week I manged to reach him 5 times in total and he still never got my complete call sign, by the fourth week I got lucky and a massive wave of QSB seemed to lift my signal up for a few seconds and I got a respectable 44 report from Sabu. Man was that Joyefull Grin  You don't know how painful it was on each pprevious occasion to have to repeat sending the Prefix over and over just to have him say "sorry" after the 4th try of the suffix Sad but I never gave up and I succeeded.

Then I tried for China and as soon as I hit into the same road block I went out and bought a Amp and later a New Antenna and now I can go to bed early and sleep late if I want because I can reach them without the extra challenges. Throughout it all I never hated the big Guns I just adapted and knew what I could do and what I could not. I never frustrated myself in a hopeless pileups instead I used strategy to get what I needed.
  
I think those days were great for me, I developed a skill set that I still use today of following the DX's time schedule, watching the Grey line and figuring out were a station might show up. I might not have learned these things had my first Antenna not been a G5RV and a slightly deaf 857D.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 05:09:06 PM by KD8MJR » Logged
AJ4CU
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 04:35:18 PM »

Hello all,

I wish to share this sad thing I heard, during the totally crazy pileups for HK, there were of course every manner of miscreant (read, band cops, idiots, and just plain dumb a@@es) on the calling freq, some of these guys were screaming "what part of up don't you get" so loud I am sure they had sore throats for a couple days (serves them right) but what was really bad is the folks that lack the operating skills to listen to the DX and see where they are listening were being acknowledged by the so called band cops and and actually think that HK gave them a 59 and they are in the log, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!

How coarse and full of malice can people be? aparrently quite a bit, I wish a pox on them and their stations, may lightning be in their futures!!!!!

Be sure to check the online log folks if you goofed you aint in it!
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KD8MJR
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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 05:11:46 PM »

How coarse and full of malice can people be? aparrently quite a bit, I wish a pox on them and their stations, may lightning be in their futures!!!!!

Hmmmm something about the Kettle comes to mind.
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WW3QB
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« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 05:12:01 PM »

Hello all,

I wish to share this sad thing I heard, during the totally crazy pileups for HK, there were of course every manner of miscreant (read, band cops, idiots, and just plain dumb a@@es) on the calling freq, some of these guys were screaming "what part of up don't you get" so loud I am sure they had sore throats for a couple days (serves them right) but what was really bad is the folks that lack the operating skills to listen to the DX and see where they are listening were being acknowledged by the so called band cops and and actually think that HK gave them a 59 and they are in the log, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!

How coarse and full of malice can people be? aparrently quite a bit, I wish a pox on them and their stations, may lightning be in their futures!!!!!

Be sure to check the online log folks if you goofed you aint in it!

This happens quite often. In one HK0NA SSB pileup I heard this:
Lid calling on DX frequency: W4xxx
Not the DX: W4xxx 59
Lid: 59 thank you
Unknown station 1: That was cruel.
Unknown station 2: He deserved it.
Lid: Yes, I did.

So the Lid was not as Liddy as we thought. At least he knew he did wrong.

But I do agree with station 2 that most stations that get this treatment do deserve it (second to the tuner uppers).
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AJ4CU
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« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 06:54:03 PM »

How coarse and full of malice can people be? aparrently quite a bit, I wish a pox on them and their stations, may lightning be in their futures!!!!!

Hmmmm something about the Kettle comes to mind.

KD8MJR, I know enough to listen and operate as a good operator, I merely wanted to state facts about rotten people, so if you have something to say say it, don't speak in half statements, or are you offended because someone described a behavior you support?

UGH, some people.....
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W2IRT
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 09:08:54 PM »

Hey, sometimes it works. I don't approve of frequency cops ever transmitting over the DX, but on more than a couple of occasions I've heard a few incessant lids get a fake 59, they believe it and go away, leaving the frequency in peace. I laugh myself silly when I hear it.
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NU4B
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2012, 04:33:34 AM »

Hey, sometimes it works. I don't approve of frequency cops ever transmitting over the DX, but on more than a couple of occasions I've heard a few incessant lids get a fake 59, they believe it and go away, leaving the frequency in peace. I laugh myself silly when I hear it.

I've heard that a few times also, its sad....... but very very amusing!  Grin
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WB3CQM
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2012, 05:39:12 AM »

Quote
1    19,802    47.1%

Bet plenty of the single Qs are busted calls. Had an email last week from K0MD asking whether I had worked them yet on 40 and I hadn't. K0MD got his Q logged as me.

Practical example. Wanted my son, a brand new tech to work them on 10 SSB. His first rare one. No way he's going to waltz into such a q with my 43' vertical. The brief openings on ten, amid our local rain, will be be dominated by big guns filling slots.

Similarly long suffering diehard VHF DXers will have to duke it out on six with HF big guns who will clutter the band just for a slot-fill.

There's a legitimate way to test one's station on many bands: It's a contest. It's eye-opening to see how one does against The Real Big Boys in the CQWW. Working a stinkin' rock 2,000 miles away over and over for weeks means nothing.

Jeff
K0OD

Rather you like it not Jeff . LEADERBOARDS ARE HERE TO STAY. Maybe to you working Malpelo Island means nothing but to the thousands that did work them It meant something.

So my question to you is , If it means nothing to work a station on a rock 2000 miles away , WHY did you work them in the first place ?

You may not think leaderboards are a contest but I disagree. They just are not what YOU think a contest should be or is.

I view the leaderboard as a endurance contest. Where you must fight for the contact in a pile up most likely . Where TIME is also a key factor. The first op that works them will be in the lead. It is where you must spend hours and hours of listening to achieve best success. Other words it takes a little more skill than watching the packet spots.

Leaderboard takes a NEW or Different type of SKILL to be successful Now on T32C if you were a world class op at CW you could NOT be no# 1 without doing SSB / RTTY / FM / PSK63. Is this a contest ? I say yes BECAUSE there is a No#1 spot and a No# 100. So rather you or anyone likes it or not DX operations that use the leaderboard declare their operation a contest or competition of sorts !

My quest to be No# 1 on a leaderboard had NOTHING to do with testing my station. It was about being No#1 on the leaderboard. I already know the station I built is very good station.

Could I compete against top contester  in WWCQ-CW ? NO NO NO ! It is NOT my station that lacks , for two  of the best contesters in the world   designed and help build it . I admit I  lack the skill needed to win at such a competition .

I truly admire ALL successful contest operators.

But what the leaderboard does is give me and many ham ops  a CHANCE to WIN at SOMETHING SPECIAL. Somewhere I CAN compete and do WELL AT!

I have been in 100's and 1000's of pile ups. And it is not the leaderboard that make the pile ups! It is the DX station in the Want !

Let BS7H come back on the air and see how big the pile ups will be . NO leaderboard !

The 2007 BS7H operation the cw pile ups were 50 kc wide and very deep !

Jeff I have done a Log search of your contacts with T32C and HK0NA and HU2DX . That was enough to tell me , you are either a very busy person with NO TIME for DXing or you are NOT a DXer at all and only want to VENT YOUR ANGER !

If you listen in and long enough to the many pile ups as I have . You will find that there is a BIGGER PROBLEM that ham radio faces than the leaderboards !

P.S I have withdrawn from ALL competition on Leaderboards and will resume my normal DX activity . Other words Jeff and every one else  , you do not have to worry about me bumping you out of No# 1 slot on the leaderboards. I QUITE!  After all what more do I have to PROVE after T32C using 100 watts  ?

I filled as many of  the band slots that I could with HK0NA because I wanted to , I could do it and I had fun. I am NOT chasing the DX Challenge either. No awards either . I did it because I love DXing and Ham Radio ! I spent the TIME and MONEY to build a station and develop my skills. I want to USE the station and my time and ability before I die ! with 100 watts!

The reason I spent many stressful hours learning about rtty psk and drilling on RufzXP/ Morse Runner/ CW Freak/ LCWO . Was simply to be a better operator and enjoy ham radio to the fullest.

Congratulation to your son for becoming a new ham.

100 watts - TIME - 

73 JIM

« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 05:55:46 AM by WB3CQM » Logged
N3OX
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2012, 06:54:33 AM »

what was really bad is the folks that lack the operating skills to listen to the DX and see where they are listening were being acknowledged by the so called band cops and and actually think that HK gave them a 59 and they are in the log, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!

Well look.  "Everyone makes mistakes" but sometimes that's not forgivable if the mistake harms many other people.

You can't just shrug it off when a first time driver turns wrong and is driving the wrong way up a highway and just keeps on going.  Someone could get hurt.   The new driver is an idiot if they don't very quickly recognize and correct their mistake, and if all new drivers are constantly getting on the highway going the wrong way and aren't stopped by the legit cops people are going to get mad. It's really completely unnacceptable for new DXers to not "get" split operation.  They should learn about it BEFORE they call in big pileups, not while they're calling.  Learning it WHILE they're calling a rare one has a cost to other hams that greatly outweighs the value of the new DX'ers learning experience.

Now, in this analogy the band cop is the guy who has a near miss with the idiot new driver going the other way and decides to pull a U-turn in their own lane and starts heading the wrong way on the highway going twice as fast so they catch up with the idiot new driver intending to run them off the road and beat the s*** out of them.

The action of the "band cop driver" is WORSE than the action of the idiot new driver.  Vigilante activity to "punish" the people calling on the DX frequency just greatly increases the interference and harms many more people.

But that doesn't mean that the "idiot new driver" should have the right to learn about highways by going the wrong way on them.  The problem with the analogy of course is that ham radio doesn't have any REAL cops.  There's no one to call who has the power to legitmately stop the people who don't "get" split operation and who are QRMing the world with their ignorance.  This makes people mad.  It's not acceptable to take that anger out on the air, and it causes more problems, but the anger and disappointment itself is justified.

So what do we do about it?  I think the solution is partially to make sure that new DXers understand that listen, listen, listen and if you're not sure what's happening, listen MORE and do not dare transmit until you understand is the cardinal rule of sportsmanlike DXing.   You should FIND the people the DX is actually responding to before you call, and you should never, ever, ever, ever call simplex without studying the situation carefully.

Everyone should be terrified of messing up the DX transmit frequency, and that doesn't seem to be the case.  It's probably partially because the "danger" isn't real, it's like a video game. "Whoops, sorry I shot you when you were trying to do something.  Won't happen again." 

But it kills peoples' enjoyment of the game if the uninformed and those angry at the uninformed are always screwing it up.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 06:59:28 AM by N3OX » Logged

73,
Dan
http://www.n3ox.net

Monkey/silicon cyborg, beeping at rocks since 1995.
KE4WI
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« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2012, 05:41:38 PM »

I enjoyed working the HK0NA DXpedition chase.  I guess according to the leaderboard I am one of the .1% guys since I worked him on 22 out of 27 slots. I didn't start out to set any record. I just worked them when I heard them. It was never about ego, I just enjoyed (most of the time) trying my skills against an insane QRM situation to see if I could get through.  I worked them and moved on and checked the online log so I didn't waste some other guys QSO chance by being a duplicate.  If I worked them great if not, it wasn't the end of the world.  It was a fun challenge.  I wish them well, they put up with a lot of rude behavior.  Most of the DXers I monitored conducted themselves well.  There were those of course that lost it and made life miserable for all.  When that happened, I just turned the rig off and did something else and came back later.  It is after all a hobby and it's supposed to be fun.  I had fun.  I hope others did too.  The HK0NA team did a fantastic job.  Well done to them
73 all and see you in the next pile up.
Steve KE4WI
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W2IRT
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« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2012, 08:25:53 PM »

Steve, I went one further. I was trying to work 'em everywhere. I mostly succeeded, except for 6m, alas...no propagation to HK0NA from my QTH in NJ, despite much listening. 25 of 27 greenies worked Smiley. I rarely bother chasing anybody across the spectrum, but if it's an interesting DXpedition to some place that doesn't see much activity, yeah, I'm going to do my best to run the table. I love fighting in the pileups; that's why I built the station I did and why I also contest heavily.

As to QRMers, I just ignored them during HK0NA. There were no scenarios where I didn't hear them loudly enough to make a QSO through the crud. Doing just that increases my skill as a DXer. I don't appreciate that skill being necessary, but it works nevertheless.

Congrats to the HK0NA team and congrats to the 35 other hams who beat me on the overall world leaderboard. Colour me envious!
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