Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ft-817nd or the Ft-857??  (Read 13676 times)
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5489




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2012, 06:00:26 AM »

If you can only get one, get a 100 watt rig. QRP can get old at times and while you can do well at times with 5 watts under good conditions you will be using it in a world where some hams run 1.5kw and more at time's. If it is your only rig, do not hamstring yourself with only 5 watts. 
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 854




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 11:01:34 PM »

If you "graduate" from using heavy gel cell batteries and move to lightweight lithium you will find that you can bring more radio for same total weight and have more run time and option of more power too. If Yaesu would update 817 and use lithium batteries with it they could greatly increase run time on internal batteries and even boost power some too. BTW you can still run 5 watts for a 857 or the like but you could run more when needed too.

What are the ins and outs and gotchas associated with making this switch?  Is there an a short version of how to go about doing this and what the pitfalls are?

Tom
AE5QB
Hi Tom,
I use lithium ion batteries (7AH), with my FT817ND when in the bush, and they work really well and are very light.
I  use some " travel batteries" which are supposed to be used with mobile phones etc etc and provide 5 volts from USB connectors.
I put these guys in series ( two at a time ) and carry six with me with very little weight for the whole bunch.
The 10 volts supplied is quite enough for the FT817ND.

They work great with the FT817ND, but the problem with Lithion ion batteries is that (even for polymer types) it is necessary to operate them very much within their specs or they could deposit metallic lithium and if moisture gets in, fire results.
This is why they have onboard controllers which dont allow them to be discharged too far or charged when the conditions are dangerous.
These controllers also limit the discharge current, and unless you are using very expensive purpose built Lion batteries/controllers then they will simply not support the current drawn by a 100 watt rig, but will fold the voltage down for safety.

This is not a problem with the FT817ND but although I have tried various other off the shelf Lion solutions, they simply will not support the current of 100 watt rigs.
Note that the batteries themselves can supply the current for a while, but generally the onboard controllers will invoke cell protection measures.

Lion technology is definitely the future direction of battery development, and they are quite capable of high power work, as seen in the tesla and other electric vehicles, but the cost is so high that it does not make sense for hobby use when gel cells will supply the same current without having to pamper the cells except for limiting the discharge voltage so as not to dimish the batterys' service life.

Until the prices come down, it is still best (if you are trying to drive 100w rigs) to stick with the old lead acid technology, but for qrp work, the Lion battery route is easy and relatively inexpensive.

Hope this helps,

73s



« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:08:10 PM by STAYVERTICAL » Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5489




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 05:23:46 AM »


This is not a problem with the FT817ND but although I have tried various other off the shelf Lion solutions, they simply will not support the current of 100 watt rigs.


The cup here is either empty or full it seems because this suggests that a 100 watt is is only a 100 watt rig. But, while a 817 is ONLY a 5 watt max rig, a 100 watt rig like a 857 can be a 5 watt rig too on demand or a 10 or 20 watt rig as well as a 100 watt rig when needed.   
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
STAYVERTICAL
Member

Posts: 854




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 02:04:45 PM »


This is not a problem with the FT817ND but although I have tried various other off the shelf Lion solutions, they simply will not support the current of 100 watt rigs.


The cup here is either empty or full it seems because this suggests that a 100 watt is is only a 100 watt rig. But, while a 817 is ONLY a 5 watt max rig, a 100 watt rig like a 857 can be a 5 watt rig too on demand or a 10 or 20 watt rig as well as a 100 watt rig when needed.  

I am not sure what information you are trying to impart which is not obvious to most hams, but I am assuming that you are attempting to indicate that if you use an FT857 on low power it will act as qrp with the option of incrementally increasing power.
You have not really added any useful information other than to state the obvious, but to give you some information which may help you and the original poster, the problem when you are camping is down to one factor - energy.

Whether you are talking about having enough food and water to keep your body going, or enough battery power to keep your radio going, the problem is the same.
So, if you are going to seriously use the radio for long term camping, rather than mobile operation one needs to look seriously at energy efficiency.
The FT857 takes about 1000 mA on receive (not sqelched) while the FT817 takes about 300mA.
Apart from the fact that you will have three times the listening time, many battery technologies actually have a discharge curve which will give you more energy if the discharge rate is lower, thus extending the listening time more than the obvious.

As regards transmit time, if you are in the bush, generally real estate and antennas are not a problem, so it is a simple task to put up high gain wire antennas quickly. The six to 9 dB gained will give an ERP of 20 to 40 watts for no  extra power consumption, although only in the direction of your beam heading.
Also, it is much easier to carry a small solar charger/solar cell array which only needs to charge a small battery than a large battery, thus reducing weight and keeping you going almost indefinitely.

I suspect you are looking at the situation from the point of view of operating out of a public park or campsite, rather than being in a wilderness environment, otherwise you would realise the futility of lugging an FT857 and its power pack through the wilderness.
Armchair generals are always the wisest.

Get out in the bush, you will love it.

73s
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 02:46:59 PM by STAYVERTICAL » Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5489




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2012, 03:35:14 PM »

This started as with rig as a only rig and a 817 is a poor choice as a only rig. When conditions are good, especially on upper bands; you can get out okay on 5 watts but when they are not it is quite different. Also while you say it is a challenge to work QRP like this it is a challenge for someone to pick you out of noise at times. You might be QRP's but they are doing the struggling to hear you not you them. The little extra current draw of a 857 on receive is a small price to pay for more capability when not in field and the ability to add more than 2 S-units to signal. Also you can likely trim it a bit further if you blank back light when you do not need it.

BTW the 857 draws 1 amp at max audio, which has a lot more output power than 817, but not at normal receive levels and a little over 500ma squelched.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 07:45:27 AM by W8JX » Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
K5TED
Member

Posts: 699




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 11:08:15 AM »

I too, own both the FT-817ND and the FT-857D.

The FT-817ND is well suited for backpacking or camping with the caveat that the internal batteries under no circumstances will last "a couple of hours" if any sort of SSB transmitting is done above LO power setting. It will run for a couple of hours on receive just fine.  It's really much more suited for CW ops on battery power. Simple math will show you that at 450mA on recieve, using a 1400mAH pack (factory supplied FNB-85 NiMH), gives you a little over three hours on paper, but the reality is that when the pack voltage drops below 9v, fuggedaboutit. Key up and it'll reboot. So, on HF, unsquelched, you get about two hours if you don't talk much. On VHF/UHF FM, squelched, low power, you might get three hours of QSO's if you keep it short.

You can, of course, opt to load up three 10-cell 12V 3600mAh R/C battery packs in parallel into a fanny pack or carry case along with the radio, and go to town. That's what I use. It's lightweight and lasts hours. If the 817ND were to be my ONLY rig, then I would shell out the extra bucks for the Tokyo Hy-Power amp or the Chinese one that has recently surfaced. The 817ND receive is fine for casual use, not so great when in a crowded band. Don't waste the money on the narrow SSB filter. A quick youtube search will point you to some FT-817ND filter demonstrations that will leave you anything but impressed. The CW filter is OK.  Buy the amp instead.

A nice addition is the Elecraft T-1, LDG-817 or even the Miracle Whip if you can get it cheap, used. Either will make your antenna tuning life easer. I suggest the T-1 for the price, but have had surprising results with the Miracle Whip on PSK and SSB, despite the negative reviews. If the LDG-817 is anything like the Z100, then I'd suggest it as well. I've used the 817ND quite extensively in the field and can say that it is a great little rig but can't take the place of a higher power set for general use. It makes an excellent portable 2m SSB rig for hilltopping.



The FT-857D, on the other hand, is not well suited for backpacking, unless you want to carry some serious battery power along. Again, the high capacity R/C packs are wonderful. Keep the display dimmed, the power down and you'll have a formidable field radio, assuming you can find some sort of decent carry case for it and some way to mount antenna. If you are planning to use it for camping and fishing where you could indeed have access to a couple of SLA 9AH batteries, it is much more well suited than the 817. The DSP, in my opinion, is not "all that". It's pretty useless actually except for the bandpass filter.
I've seen several Go Kits based on the 857D and they work quite well. Just not something you want to pack uphill.
Logged
AE5QB
Member

Posts: 267




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2012, 05:29:17 PM »

Ted, could you share your battery experience with the 857D in the field please?  I have never operated this way with the 857D and would like to get a better understanding of what I might expect in the way of operating times at the top of a mountain.  I have some 8AH gel cells and to be honest I don't think I would like to lug even one of them plus the radio on moderate to long hike.  I am really interested in what you are seeing with the RC battery packs on both the 817 and 857.

Thanks

Tom
AE5QB
Logged
KH6DC
Member

Posts: 634




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2012, 12:36:18 AM »

I do the same activities like you and went bicycle mobile several weeks ago, one with my FT817ND on the internal battery pack and once with my 706 MKIIG with a 7 ah gel cell, buddipole antenna with mast and tripod.  On a mountain bike with rear trunk for the equipment and supplies and the radios in my Camelbak.  When I had the 817, I wished I had the 706 with 100w as I made only 1 contact on 10m the whole 2 hours and he was on Maui and I was on Oahu.  When I had the 706, I made a bunch of contacts at 50w and it got heavy, bulky, clumdy in my Camelbak all I wanted was to drop kick the radio as I was getting extremely irritated and PI$$ED and wished I had the 817.  Hope this helps your decision, give and take, one or the other - more power output and more weight OR light weight low power (in some cases almost no power).  I choose light weight that's what MICROLITE means plus it's satisfying making a QSO on 5w.

GL and 73, de kH6DC
Logged

73 and Aloha,
de Delwyn, KH6DC
KH6DC
Member

Posts: 634




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2012, 12:38:07 AM »

I do the same activities like you and went bicycle mobile several weeks ago, one with my FT817ND on the internal battery pack and once with my 706 MKIIG with a 7 ah gel cell, buddipole antenna with mast and tripod.  On a mountain bike with rear trunk for the equipment and supplies and the radios in my Camelbak.  When I had the 817, I wished I had the 706 with 100w as I made only 1 contact on 10m the whole 2 hours and he was on Maui and I was on Oahu.  When I had the 706, I made a bunch of contacts at 50w and it got heavy, bulky, clumdy in my Camelbak all I wanted was to drop kick the radio as I was getting extremely irritated and PI$$ED and wished I had the 817.  Hope this helps your decision, give and take, one or the other - more power output and more weight OR light weight low power (in some cases almost no power).  I choose light weight that's what MICROLITE means plus it's satisfying making a QSO on 5w.

GL and 73, de kH6DC

Sorry I meant radio in the Camelbak on 2 different occasions.  Both times I had the Buddipole.
Logged

73 and Aloha,
de Delwyn, KH6DC
WX7G
Member

Posts: 5920




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2012, 07:30:08 AM »

For QRP I thing CW or PSK-31 are the modes to use.
Logged
K8GU
Member

Posts: 716


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2012, 07:44:20 AM »

I find myself in the somewhat unusual position of agreeing with W8JX on this.  I owned the FT-817 right after they came out and it was a fun radio.  But, I had a 100-watt radio at the same time.  Although I occasionally kick myself for selling the 817 (mostly because I enjoyed the VHF coverage), I've never regretted carrying a heavier radio with 100 watts output for portable operation.  I also have a Small Wonder SW-40 that I can use if I really want to take a radio that's small and light.
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5489




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2012, 09:25:30 AM »

It's a shame nobody ever made like a 20 watt portable rig as a compromise between size and weight and yet having more punch when needed. While they kinda do with FT897 it is a 100 watt rig by design in size and mass that is 20 watts on internal battery.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
K0JEG
Member

Posts: 639




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 01:52:15 PM »

It's a shame nobody ever made like a 20 watt portable rig as a compromise between size and weight and yet having more punch when needed. While they kinda do with FT897 it is a 100 watt rig by design in size and mass that is 20 watts on internal battery.


I wonder if there's a trace for battery power on the FT857 circuit board, since it's the same design.
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 5489




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 02:19:14 PM »

It's a shame nobody ever made like a 20 watt portable rig as a compromise between size and weight and yet having more punch when needed. While they kinda do with FT897 it is a 100 watt rig by design in size and mass that is 20 watts on internal battery.


I wonder if there's a trace for battery power on the FT857 circuit board, since it's the same design.

Good question but you can set it to 20 watts too.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Entered using a  WiFi Win 8.1 RT tablet or a Android tablet using 4G/LTE or WiFi.
K0JEG
Member

Posts: 639




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2012, 09:32:35 AM »

Yes, but it's my understanding that when on internal battery power the final power amp is bypassed/powered down, saving battery life. If you just dial down the final output it still uses the PA.

There was an article in QST a few years ago that showed how to add another set of power terminals to the power jack that would act like the internal battery connection.
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!