Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: My code journey  (Read 8386 times)
KK0G
Member

Posts: 47


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 01:59:46 PM »

I didn't realize this was an American forum. I though the internet was a world-wide thing.

paul

eHam.net, LLC
4600 State Route 26
Vernon, NY 13476
Logged
PA0BLAH
Member

Posts: 0




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 03:06:29 PM »

Quote
Hey 5 wpm guy, when you expect that every ham is going to QRS because you think that is ham spirit they have to deliver because you are too lazy to learn 12 wpm before going on the air

I do take offense at "too lazy to learn 12wpm before going on the air".  
Then I estimate that you are over sensitive, I feel not the slightest need to excuse me for the fact that I give my opinion in
the way I did.

My opinion is that it is selfishness to expect that everybody is willingfull to teach you. Especially not when it is a hobby and you want to make some conversation in the speed that suits you and that you are comfortable with.

Quote
Lazy has nothing to do with it - and there is no reason why someone has to be at 12wpm - why, because you say so?
No, because

1. On the HF bands CW was worldwide required by governments, so you may expect that everybody meet those requirements.

2. When people want to transmit one dot or dash per hour, is NOT ok , because you have to repeat your call every 5 minutes, so the legal minimum speed is the speed that needs 5 minutes for transmitting your call. No conversation whatsoever possible in that lower limit case.

3. In general the quality of Morse code generated bij hams is often pretty bad compared with machine code. So when you learn the code from generated machine code you get a better fist compared  with listening to signals on the band, especially when you start making QSO's with other cripple hams that are limited in their ability to copy to 5 wpm.

What you hear is what you are going to generate, just as learning speech, and you never lose your accent when you are grown up in some deprived slum. So learn first to copy the the code from machine generated text and AFTER that start exercising with some key, you are then able to hear your own timing errors.

4. It is NOT ok to transmit 5wpm, due to the fact that it stimulates a wrong method of copying, that yield ceilings at abt 8, 10 and 12 wpm. It is even so that on code proficiency runs guys copy and write 40 wpm without errors as if naturally speech was spelled out, but at the starting speed of 5 wpm, it requires concentration and they make errors. They are not used to count dots, and that is what is required at 5 wpm, because the characters are heard as dots and dashes and not as a complete pattern per character.

5. When you want to rise your speed, best way is to copy text that is  10% above your max. When you make contacts on the band it is in my opinion a very strange behavior to ask for _edit_QRQ_ 10% above your max speed, and copy only 50% of what the QSOpartner transmitted to you.

So the HF band is the wrong place to increase your speed and 5 wpm is the wrong speed to start your CW carier with.


Quote
If people feel fine at 5wpm and want to get on the air, that is their choice and laziness has nothing to do with it.  Best way to build speed IS to be on the air, at any speed.  If they are calling CQ and another station answers, that answering station should have good manners to QRS to the CQers speed - vice versa is a different story - that expectation is unrealistic.

Right, hence dont expect me to answer a CQ with that rediculous low speed. When you have a bike and you drive too slow you probably drop on the ground and break your leg. And when I answer, I take the cup of coffee and they can listen to machine generated text in the meanwhile.
Quote
People don't stay at 5wpm for long if they are on the air for a bit - and that is just the way it is.  Novices got on at 5wpm for a long time... there is no reason for someone to not play if they know the letters.

They get their ceilings because they learn the wrong way and the develop a bad fist.

Bob
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 03:54:06 PM by PA0BLAH » Logged
PA0BLAH
Member

Posts: 0




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 03:11:22 PM »

I didn't realize this was an American forum. I though the internet was a world-wide thing.

paul

eHam.net, LLC
4600 State Route 26
Vernon, NY 13476

Sure it is an forum registered in the USA state of New York and hence the text written is under the responsibility of the webmaster under USA federal law and NY state law.

There is a huge difference between Internet (written with a capital in order to distinguish it from an internet) and a forum.
Logged
KK0G
Member

Posts: 47


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 03:15:29 PM »

I didn't realize this was an American forum. I though the internet was a world-wide thing.

paul

eHam.net, LLC
4600 State Route 26
Vernon, NY 13476

Upon reflection I realize I may have come off as rude, that's not my intent.

You've missed my point entirely Paul, I apologize for not making myself more clear. Whether you think eHam.net is an American site or not, the entire website is clearly written in American English therefore one would assume that is the language spoken on this site. Obviously we warmly welcome hams from all over the globe including those who may not be fluent in English, and out of the 'ham spirit' we try to make sense of their posts the best we can.

I was attempting to show the hypocrisy of chastising hams for using the language of Morse code on the air before they are fluent in the language of Morse code, by posting on an site written in the English language before one is fluent the English language.
Logged
NI0C
Member

Posts: 2382




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 03:32:14 PM »

I was on the air as a Novice from Aug to Dec 1959.  Back then hardly anyone in the novice bands was operating as slow as 5 wpm.  My recollection is that the average speed in the novice bands was around 10-12 wpm.  The reason? There was a delay time of six or more weeks between passing the exam and getting the license.  Most people continued practicing off the air to increase their speed, because they wanted to be sure to qualify at 13 wpm and upgrade to General Class within the one year non-renewable Novice license term.

I'm with Bob-- I wouldn't have the patience to deal with 1 wpm (on the air!), and I don't know anyone else who would, either.

73,
Chuck  NI0C
 
Logged
PA0BLAH
Member

Posts: 0




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 03:40:01 PM »



You mean sort of like someone who has a limited grasp of the English language posting on an American forum? Should we discourage you from posting here until you have a firmer grasp on English? Or should we welcome you here out of ham spirit instead?

Writing here has nothing to do with hamspirit, and writing in a language not the language you are normally having conversation in even lesser. I write here in a way you can (obviously) understand what I mean, and
when you don't like my message you have the ability to ask the webmaster for wiping it out, which will be done if it is not a normal opinion, but is expressed in offensive language.

So when you don't like my message  you just ignore it. That has nothing to do with hamspirit.

I think it is not defendable  that you should try to omit my message because you don't want that other guys read it.


Logged
K3STX
Member

Posts: 956




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 04:09:17 PM »

Upon reflection I realize I may have come off as rude, that's not my intent.

No worries, I knew exactly what you meant. I was too tongue-in-cheek for my own good.

This whole discussion is idiotic; every reasonable person agrees it is fun to get on the air at any speed. As a Novice I was sending below 5 wpm at the beginning, I was sending/ receiving over 35 wpm within months.

P
Logged
KK0G
Member

Posts: 47


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 05:45:50 PM »




You mean sort of like someone who has a limited grasp of the English language posting on an American forum? Should we discourage you from posting here until you have a firmer grasp on English? Or should we welcome you here out of ham spirit instead?

Quote
Writing here has nothing to do with hamspirit, and writing in a language not the language you are normally having conversation in even lesser.

Writing here most definitely has something to do with 'ham spirit', how you feel it does not escapes me.

Quote
I write here in a way you can (obviously) understand what I mean, and
when you don't like my message you have the ability to ask the webmaster for wiping it out, which will be done if it is not a normal opinion, but is expressed in offensive language.

I send code in a way that you can (obviously) understand what I mean and when you don't like my message or the speed I send at, you have the ability to spin the VFO knob.

Quote
So when you don't like my message  you just ignore it. That has nothing to do with hamspirit.

So when you don't like my code sending, just ignore it, although that does have something to do with ham spirit.

Quote
I think it is not defendable  that you should try to omit my message because you don't want that other guys read it.

I'm not trying to omit your message, I'm disagreeing with it....... big difference.


Logged
NI0C
Member

Posts: 2382




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 07:05:36 PM »

Quote
This whole discussion is idiotic; every reasonable person agrees it is fun to get on the air at any speed.

Yeah, well let's examine how this "idiotic" discussion evolved. You said things like: "Don't listen to an old fart like PAOBLAH" and "PAOBLAH, you should be ashamed of yourself!" 

Every reasonable person also agrees that there exists some threshold of speed below which it is ludicrous to get on the air.  Personally, I would rather communicate by Pony Express mail than to use CW at one wpm, as in the example that Bob gave you.

73,
Chuck  NI0C 
Logged
K3STX
Member

Posts: 956




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 07:53:41 PM »

Jeez, it actually started with this:
Just a little tale to encourage those who have recently started the journey to learning code.

...73 de KK0G

This was followed by PAOBLAH stating (in his opinion) one should not get on the air until they can send/receive until a moderate speed of 12 wpm is achieved.

The original encouragement was dismissed and mocked. To me it is idiotic to mock someone's enthusiasm for Morse on a CW Internet forum. Obviously you do not agree.

Paul
Logged
N8TI
Member

Posts: 115




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2012, 08:23:11 PM »

I was off the air for a good ten years. Then decided to convert bedroom closet into a ham shack. Now, each night before bed I call CQ on 80 Meters and have an old fashion rag chew. I use a straight key and go slow. After all, I'm not in any hurry.

Having most fun ever. If someone tries to make a QSO a day, in a couple of months they will be up to 10 or 15 WPM without even thinking about it.

My recommendation is for a new guy to call CQ at his or her normal speed. The person who comes back to you will come back at that speed. If they want to talk with someone faster, they won't come back. Simple.

Joe
Logged
NI0C
Member

Posts: 2382




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2012, 08:29:41 PM »

Quote
The original encouragement was dismissed and mocked. To me it is idiotic to mock someone's enthusiasm for Morse on a CW Internet forum. Obviously you do not agree.

Paul, of course I agree with you on that point.  I just didn't read Bob's words as dismissive and mocking.  He asked the OP if he would be willing to help someone at one wpm.  He stated he wouldn't be interested in a QSO below about 12 wpm.  What's wrong with that?  I would characterize his words as blunt, but honest.

73,
Chuck  NI0C 

Logged
PA0BLAH
Member

Posts: 0




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2012, 03:38:13 AM »


I'm not trying to omit your message, I'm disagreeing with it....... big difference.

Yes of course, but I was referring to K3STX who wrote:
Quote
Yeah, but other people read this stuff too. The last thing we want is for aspiring CW ops to get the idea that old-timers don't want them getting on the air unless they are "already 12 wpm" (like the old General class license).

The thread is not about hamspirit, I gave my opinion, and founded it on arguments, that it is far  better to learn the code first, at a reasonable speed of at least 12 wpm, and after that start using a key. It prevents developing bad fists and bad timing with keyers.

This whole discussion is idiotic; every reasonable person agrees it is fun to get on the air at any speed. As a Novice I was sending below 5 wpm at the beginning, I was sending/ receiving over 35 wpm within months.
P
New hams in CW can read your opinion K3STX and be disappointed when they are not at 35 wpm after a few month, as you stated you were. I believe you on your word, but when your progress was a general rule, it should be rare to find somebody with a lower speed on the bands. The opposite is closer to the truth. Perhaps  3% is able to copy at 25 wpm and higher.

Furthermore every father knows by instinct that is a very bad habit to give a child everything it is asking for, especially plenty of sweets and not a regular meal.

My contribution is that I hope I showed the guy with the thick skin, and all the readers with a thinner one, they are far better off with handling the way I showed. Hence learn the code till at least 12 wpm, don't expect everybody to slow down as a right pointing with the finger to hamspirit, and don't make QSO's in order to learn the code with guys in the same position.

When you growed twin kids, you could know they develop speech in a way they understand each other obviously perfect, but even the mother can't understand their conversation.
In CW, it is the way to develop a bad fist. Hamspirit requires you to warn the new comer, and to discourage wrong ways of learning.

Tks Chuck NI0C for helping to clarify my points expressed in as bad indicated English for the other participants.

This is my final word in this thread.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 03:45:12 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
K3STX
Member

Posts: 956




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2012, 03:52:32 AM »

This is my final word in this thread.

That is fine. You think Hams should not get on the air until they are competent at 12 wpm, I disagree. You think it is unreasonable to slow your speed down to 3 wpm to have a QSO with somebody (even though the origijnal poster never said he expected people to slow down for him!). I do not think it is unreasonable to HOPE for that, but most guys won't jump in at 3 wpm. But that is not the point.

My 35 wpm comment was only meant to show that (as already mentioned) on the air practice will give you actual positive results with increased speed, even if you do not realize it is happening. You start at 5 wpm, and before you know it you ARE at 12 wpm. But you managed to have fun getting there instead of doing it with a code program on your computer.

And finally Chuck, I guess we agree. I saw PAOPLAHs comments as an attempt to dismiss the comments of a "new" Ham using slow speed CW. He come off as grumpy. There is no "friend" wanting to use CW at 1 wpm on the air; he is philosophically opposed to the idea of Hams using very slow speed CW on the air and then wanting others to slow down for them.

We should all encourage new ops who have a desire to get on the air. Period. This is a PRO CW forum. I too am done.

p
Logged
2E0OZI
Member

Posts: 269




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 11:22:41 AM »

Well I'm still enthusiastic.  Grin
Logged

Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
George Orwell
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!