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Author Topic: KH8/N9YU, 5W7A & 3D2R - Prep for Sept's Conway Reef trip  (Read 4499 times)
WS3N
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Posts: 732




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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 10:41:32 AM »

Working by the numbers was very effective from ST0R. The pileups at ST0R were particularly massive. We could work EU 24X7. For the first week, the pile ups were often 40KC wide.

In order to give North America a chance, we worked by the numbers following propagation. You could hear the band opening and the 1's, 2's. 3's and 8's were rolling on it. Soon the 4's, 5's, 9's and zeros. The window for 6's and 7's was very small and at some days it did not open.  I worked all across the USA going by the numbers starting with 1, then 2, then 3, then 4 then 8, followed by 9, then 0 and 5's. I would call for 6's and 7's and if none came back, I would start over with 1's again.  I could follow the grey-line in WinTest and see just where the band would open next and sure enough it did, right along with the grey line as it crossed the USA.

Working by the numbers can be effective in a large pile up with disciplined amateurs on both ends of the pile up.

Paul, the problem with doing it in that fashion is guys who kept their callsigns when they moved. The 6 or the 7 who's living in New Jersey or Vermont is SOL. Ditto the 2s in California and so on. Likewise, as the afternoon/evening terminator sweeps across NA there's often residual propagation in the areas now in darkness. If all you're working are 6s and 7s but I can still hear you in 2-land, I don't get that shot. Obiously that's not a big deal in the early days of a DXpedition when I can just work you tomorrow, but as the end draws near that will get a lot of guys' blood pressure up.

It makes perfect sense to go by numbers for Europe and JA. Maybe go be regions for NA instead? East coast only, midwest or west coast only?

I often hear DX in Europe, Africa, etc., asking for 6s and 7s or WNA. But I can only remember one time when I heard a Pacific or East Asian DX stop and ask for ENA only. Not a complaint, just an observation.
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NU1O
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Posts: 2691




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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:45 PM »

Quote
so why do you think it is a good idea that they cancel the Conway expedition


Please identify exactly where anything was said about cancelling the Conway expedition.

Here is the exact quote from KE8G:

"I heard them quickly QRT on several occasions when on KH8 the last few days and tonight, now that they are on 5W. Things get out-of-hand and they QRT.   I believe this will be their way of telling all of us to "shape up" or we won't be getting a new country for our DXCC tally!"

So, we shape up or we will not get Conway Reef in our logbooks.  At least that's according to KE8G!

73,

Chris/NU1O
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KD8MJR
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Posts: 2516




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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 01:40:28 PM »

I'm not sure if pulling the plug and going QRT is the best way to handle a pileup. Seems to me that many of the better DX'pedition operators know how to control the pileup and keep on plugging away, despite the rudeness of other operators.

John K7KB


My feelings also.  An example of great pileup management is the recent HK0NA, Malpelo dxpedition.  The ops would stay with you until they made a complete exchange, and got your reply.  I would not have 10M in the log for Malpelo if it wasn't for the ops patience with my little pistol station, hihi.  

Bob
K6UJ

Exactly and that system let's the others know that if they don't shut up and let the guy finish his call nobody else will be getting through. Worst ops are the ones that call out twice then pick up the idiot who was calling non stop and covering over the other guy. As for going QRT oh great, so everyone pays for a few trouble makers! Is this not the exact reason those A-holes are QRMing the freq? So no one makes a contact! Now the Dxpedition ops are making it easier for the idiots to win! What will that do for future dxpeditions?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 03:35:00 PM by KD8MJR » Logged
N6PSE
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Posts: 555


WWW

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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 02:39:17 PM »

Quote
Paul, the problem with doing it in that fashion is guys who kept their callsigns when they moved. The 6 or the 7 who's living in New Jersey or Vermont is SOL. Ditto the 2s in California and so on. Likewise, as the afternoon/evening terminator sweeps across NA there's often residual propagation in the areas now in darkness. If all you're working are 6s and 7s but I can still hear you in 2-land, I don't get that shot. Obviously that's not a big deal in the early days of a DXpedition when I can just work you tomorrow, but as the end draws near that will get a lot of guys' blood pressure up.

It makes perfect sense to go by numbers for Europe and JA. Maybe go be regions for NA instead? East coast only, midwest or west coast only?
 

As a DXpeditioner, I feel that working a huge pile up by the numbers is the most equitable/fair way to deal with the crowd. Those few hams that kept their 6 call when they moved to W1 are a very small percentage and most of them will call with a portable 1 etc. In fact, in the massive pile ups at ST0R, I heard some guys call with portable 1, portable 2 etc for each call area trying to game the system.

If a DXpedition operator merely works the strongest signals only regardless of geography,  he creates an unfair situation and thus some disenfranchised callers. Some feel that this is what promotes jamming and bad behavior.

I have tried lecturing and blacklisting and I don't think it is effective and I won't do that anymore.  I will always strive to make the pileup as fair as possible so that everyone has a chance to make a contact.  As a pile up participant, I dislike working by the numbers, however I can anticipate somewhat when my region will be called upon and I can be ready. No one should ever feel that they are SOL. I felt SOL with the recent JA DXpedition to XT2 as they only worked JA's when they had propagation to the West Coast. Very few W6's including myself got a contact on any band.  That is not equitable.

One last item, I am on Hrane's team to Conway Reef and we are still a go!
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KD8MJR
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Posts: 2516




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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 03:39:45 PM »

I am not a fan of numbers, it really sucks when your an 8 and get there at 1.
I think regions is all that is needed but that's my opinion.
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N6ORB
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Posts: 243




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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 06:18:21 PM »

Almost exactly two years ago I managed to work YI9PSE on 20M ssb. I was using 100W and an end-fed wire antenna. It was almost 9pm PDT and the operator was calling for West Coast. I don't know if any other area had propagation, but I was certainly happy he was calling for mine.

Although I've worked a few others only because the operators were calling for West Coast, I also like it when the operators work by numbers. I think it works best when the operator rotates through the numbers working ten or so before moving on to the next number. When this is done, the pileups don't sound as huge and I suspect the breadth of the pileup can be kept smaller.

I suppose this doesn't seem fair to the guys who've spent the time, effort and money to build a big station, but it does keep the little pistols playing the game. (OK, I guess I'm really more of a Derringer...)

Dave, N6ORB
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KE8G
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Posts: 151




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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 06:35:05 PM »

Paul/N6PSE,
glad to hear you will be a member of this group.  You always manage to be involved in good operations!  I am looking forward to retirement next year, so I can begin to go on trips such as these.  I've waited and planned for many years to be able to have the time and resources to make trips such as these. 

Good Luck and safe travels!

73 de Jim - KE8G
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K9NW
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Posts: 449




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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 06:36:22 PM »

Quote
Maybe go be regions for NA instead? East coast only, midwest or west coast only

Then you get to debate what areas make up a region.  Is Wyoming really west coast?  Does an op in Grand Junction CO (200+ miles further west) get to call in with west coast?  Is eastern TN east coast?  Where does southern AL fall?

I think in most cases it's best just to work the pile.  It'll sort itself out in time.  There are occasional exceptions.



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KF6ABU
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Posts: 351




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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 07:41:29 PM »

Quote
Maybe go be regions for NA instead? East coast only, midwest or west coast only

Then you get to debate what areas make up a region.  Is Wyoming really west coast?  Does an op in Grand Junction CO (200+ miles further west) get to call in with west coast?  Is eastern TN east coast?  Where does southern AL fall?

I think in most cases it's best just to work the pile.  It'll sort itself out in time.  There are occasional exceptions.





If "sort out over time" means the most expensive stations, and stations with geographical advantage get worked, and all else don't.. then yes, "it'll sort itself out in time". If you mean giving a chance to stations with no chance due to mediocre antennas, radios etc and difficult geographical proximity, then no, it won't work itself out, say for a 3 week dxpedition 24/7.
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NU1O
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Posts: 2691




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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 01:51:08 PM »

Quote
Quote
so why do you think it is a good idea that they cancel the Conway expedition


Please identify exactly where anything was said about cancelling the Conway expedition.

Mike (K9NW) thanks for the pickup on this!

NU1O, no where in my post do I say anything remotely close that the Conway DXpedition should be cancelled. 

My comments directly lead to the conclusion and say, if you do not operate according to the wants of the Dxpedition, then you don't deserve a contact. 

There are many Dxpeditons & individuals that have "black listed" operators due to interference and being rude on the air.  I have heard on occasions individual operators being singled out for being rude and told if they didn't stop, they would be black listed. 

They have the ability to make you believe you have worked them, but never receive a confirmation.

I wish everyone luck in working this one, as it's been a few years since the last visit to Conway.  I know I need it as an all time new one, so I am wishing for great proprogation and Hrane & crew making a lot of QSOs.

73 de Jim - KE8G

Jim,

It's evident I misunderstood what you wrote.  My apologies.


I was slapped enough times with a yardstick in Catholic School for the silliest of reasons, so to think you were advocating calling of the Conway Reef DXpedition based on how behavior went with this trip didn't sit too well with me.  I am as fed up as you with the poor behavior which is now commonplace on the bands.  It was not like this when I received my ticket almost a quarter century ago.  I have no problem with blacklisting individual stations provided one is positive they are the source of the QRM, or bad behavior.

73,

Chris/NU1O
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KE8G
Member

Posts: 151




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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 06:54:13 PM »

Quote from:  link=topic=82275.msg589038#msg589038 date=1334177468
Quote
Quote
so why do you think it is a good idea that they cancel the Conway expedition


Please identify exactly where anything was said about cancelling the Conway expedition.

Mike (K9NW) thanks for the pickup on this!

NU1O, no where in my post do I say anything remotely close that the Conway DXpedition should be cancelled. 

My comments directly lead to the conclusion and say, if you do not operate according to the wants of the Dxpedition, then you don't deserve a contact. 

There are many Dxpeditons & individuals that have "black listed" operators due to interference and being rude on the air.  I have heard on occasions individual operators being singled out for being rude and told if they didn't stop, they would be black listed. 

They have the ability to make you believe you have worked them, but never receive a confirmation.

I wish everyone luck in working this one, as it's been a few years since the last visit to Conway.  I know I need it as an all time new one, so I am wishing for great proprogation and Hrane & crew making a lot of QSOs.

73 de Jim - KE8G

Jim,

It's evident I misunderstood what you wrote.  My apologies.


I was slapped enough times with a yardstick in Catholic School for the silliest of reasons, so to think you were advocating calling of the Conway Reef DXpedition based on how behavior went with this trip didn't sit too well with me.  I am as fed up as you with the poor behavior which is now commonplace on the bands.  It was not like this when I received my ticket almost a quarter century ago.  I have no problem with blacklisting individual stations provided one is positive they are the source of the QRM, or bad behavior.

73,

Chris/NU1O

Chris,

Thanks, but not necessary.  I figured you may have misread what I was saying.  No harm done!

Yes, it is really pitiful to listen on the bands with all the interference and poor operating skills that seem to abound on the air.  I have been listening to the blatant interference that is being caused to the Spratly Island DXpedition.... pitiful.  I hope it calms down in the next couple of days, then I'll make an attempt to contact them.

Best of luck and DX to you.  Hope you can nab all the ones you need.

73 de Jim - KE8G
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K0IZ
Member

Posts: 737




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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2012, 07:32:04 PM »

Being in zero land, I recall one rare DX station (not a DXpedition) who was calling by the numbers.  Started at #1, went to #9, then started over with #1.  No #0!!  Bummer.
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