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Author Topic: The ongoing push of Ham Radio to EMCOMM  (Read 83253 times)
K1CJS
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« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2013, 05:18:32 AM »

...I was referring to a different thread than what you seem to referring to, it seems. I'm referring to the one complaining about "emcomm elitists".
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,78509.0.html
It was forked out of this one:
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,44900.0.html
which was started by a well meaning guy who thought he could just turn to an emergency frequency and start helping out, without any training....

No, that is exactly the thread that I was speaking of, though maybe I should have said 'one of the points.'  The point about the leaders was brought out there.  73!
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LA9XSA
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« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2013, 07:10:04 AM »

It might be one of the points brought up later in the thread, and if it's true it's a fair point indeed, but it wasn't the original point that the thread starter wanted to make. He was worried that the focus on training and exercise was scaring away potential volunteers. He was also misrepresenting the post he was reacting to; I don't know if he did that out of dishonesty or by mistake.

Actually, from my experience the training and exercise is an attraction with volunteering. It's fun, but with a purpose. The people who join the Red Cross and the Home Guard volunteers aren't just "preppers", they get to do something interesting on their spare time and meet people.
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KO3D
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« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2013, 06:30:58 AM »

EMCOMMers take note: The $40 Baofeng UV5R HT comes with a siren and flashing LED strobe. Perfect for imitating real public safety workers without breaking the bank.
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KB8VUL
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« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2013, 05:48:30 PM »

Everybody is a "clown" real class about talking about fellow Amateur Radio Operators!    Best suggestion is to obtain a part 90 radio license for the CERT team instead of using Amateur Radio.  Heck must be a lot extra Public Service Freqs in his area!  He works in public comms area no wonder he wants everything on Part 90!  Gotta sell dem radios!


Gee, in a word. NO.
Part 90 is better for this reason, If I have a part 90 licensed repeater, I hand a volunteer a radio and tell them to use it, they are then authorized.  They don't need to go study and pass a test, they don't need a special badge with their call sign on it so they can remember what it is.  They don't need to worry about IDing every 10 minutes, and they don't need to worry about some clown screwing with them, playing music or any of the other BS that goes on.  They also don't need to worry about the fact that I will get sick of their tactical call signs, and other ARES BS and shut the repeater off.  Ham radio offers NONE of these benefits.  Simply listen to a weather net, and all the fair weather reports to get an idea of what to expect from ham radio.  The net fills with a bunch of crap.  And contrary to what you MIGHT think, the ham bands are equally licensed to all hams.  Meaning that if they want to talk, they can.  There ain't a damn thing you can do about it, and no matter what you claim to argue about with emergency traffic, it's still going to happen.  Part 90, and specifically public safety, they get visited by the FCC, or they get arrested by the local sheriff for interfering with official business. 


I suppose you would have them all run out and buy the funky bowl (Bao Fung) radios so they could be in a situation were lives may depend on their 40 dollar fine piece of communications hardware.
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W1JKA
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« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2013, 11:27:31 AM »

  I have been reading the responses to this topic from the get go.So far the only thing I can glean out of it all is a lot infighting,politics and self perceived importance between seemingly competing groups of radio communicators under the guise of true emergency communication.What is EMCOMMS other than routine emergencies i.e auto accidents,forest/house fires,bridge/road washouts,flash floods,heart attack/injury aide etc.,etc. and setting up basic communication nets in areas of natural /man made disaster areas during times when conventional and mostly hi-tech  communications is not possible.How quickly folks that once knew but have somehow forgotten the importance of the lowly CB set and their untrained Joe citizen and truck driver operators.These people obviously DISCOVER the situation then REPORT and often RELAY via CB down the line to a location where proper response can be initiated and often position themselves in strategic locations to set up a workable net.This is a daily occurrence in every state especially in areas of non cell phone coverage,just ask anybody who listens to a CB or police/fire monitor at home.This is all done without the following:uniform,official radio speak, blinking badges,45 cal.side arm and without wasting precious time awaiting call out permission to activate from the Grand Fubar.I'm all for letting these Boys clubs have their fun, camaraderie and possible real usefullness without getting in anyones way.No I am not a CB lover or operator,just a ham whose so called GO KITS consisit of cheap Regency CBs,small mag mount ants and a jump start batteries hidden some where in my car trunk or tool box in my pickem up truck for practical EMCOMMS. Prop is up on 20M CUL
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N5TWB
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« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2013, 01:06:38 PM »

  I have been reading the responses to this topic from the get go.So far the only thing I can glean out of it all is a lot infighting,politics and self perceived importance between seemingly competing groups of radio communicators under the guise of true emergency communication.

With the opening quoted above, I was hoping for some better insight without any of the sins recounted...I was disappointed, yet again. The forum was treated to more heat than light along with a CB love sonnet while joining the stereotype slam chorus from earlier forum posts. It's really no wonder it's so hard to get and maintain a solid relationship with various agencies that might get value from communications support when needed.

 
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W1JKA
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« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2013, 02:55:35 PM »

Re: N5TWB  Reply #95

    I was also disappointed by lack of insight thus my post and ensuing "CB love sonnet" which is based only on what I see and hear on a regular basis.However due to your forthright critique of my "sonnet" I have decided to keep peace in the family by cancelling my memberships to the Dead Poets Society and the Order of Odes.In the meantime I sincerely hope that any particular EMCOMMS group that you may be associated with is above and beyond what has been previously depicted in these posts so far.
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N5TWB
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« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2013, 06:34:00 PM »

I was also disappointed by lack of insight thus my post and ensuing "CB love sonnet" which is based only on what I see and hear on a regular basis.However due to your forthright critique of my "sonnet" I have decided to keep peace in the family by cancelling my memberships to the Dead Poets Society and the Order of Odes.In the meantime I sincerely hope that any particular EMCOMMS group that you may be associated with is above and beyond what has been previously depicted in these posts so far.

Well, you got me to laugh so that's a start toward communication.   Grin

IMO, every EmComm group can fall prey to any of the "sins" recounted in this thread because they are all filled with people that have various personalities and peccadillos. Successful EmComm groups have processes and procedures that overcome personalities (don't you love the alliteration I've got going here...thought a literary fellow like you would appreciate it).  Wink

As to my associations, one is working with a SkyWarn function for NE OK and the other is ARES as a response team leader for a supported agency (one of several for ARES). SkyWarn seems to work well with generally good net discipline and the main need being more spotters to report observations for the meteorologists. Training has been good to ensure severe conditions are reported according to NWS criteria.

The supported agency for ARES has been an evolving situation that has much to do with the national organization. The local ARES group is working to ensure we're available when needed or when the agency has settled its issues.
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KB8VUL
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« Reply #98 on: March 09, 2013, 06:05:52 AM »

Here's my point on part 90 and EmComm.  Ham is equally licensed, and no ham can tell another to vacate a frequency.  The ONLY possibility with this is a repeater owner.  It's their hardware and they have the right to disallow another ham to talk on their repeater.  Commercial comms is different in that the frequency license holder basically owns the freq within his operating area.  He can allow or ban ANYONE from using the frequency.  If someone gets out of line and they have been issued a radio on the system, they simply take it away. 
Ham is a great hobby, and yes, there is use for hams to do emcomm, and handle traffic.  the problem with ham and emcomm is the rules handed down for ham.  An example would be a SAR search group using ham radio looking for a lost person.  They typically use a code for I found a dead body, not stating that on open air.  This is done to protect the situation if media or the lost persons family is listening or near a radio.  You can't do that on ham.  Most be plain English, no codes or cyphers.  There are other reasons as well.  Now, for long distance comms, ham is king.  There is nothing in the commercial bands that can compete with HF, period.  When the distance is great, ham rules the roost.  Alot of it depends on the traffic I guess. 

This really isn't the point of the question I ask 7 pages ago though.  That question was, and is this.  I fail to understand the push to get people a ham license, which is hobby radio, to go mimic commercial part 90 radio.  How many people that got licensed due to involvement in SAR, CERT, ARES, SkyWarn or any other specific Emergency group that are active, or even interested in radio as a hobby?  I am all for getting people into radio as a hobby.  I enjoy talking to them on the air and helping them learn about radio and communications.  Being as I am in the commercial communications industry, I know a thing or two about radios, repeaters and the like, and I enjoy sharing that knowledge.  I hear the comments about the appliance operator hams and it sort of bothers me.  So now this push to get folks licensed for no other reason than to use hobby radio for what amounts to commercial purposes, I have a problem with it.  Going from 146 to 154 Mhz or from 440 to 460 doesn't change the usable distance of the radios that much.  Sure getting a frequency or two costs money, but once its' done, it's done.  You pay your 150 every 10 years and you have unrestricted use of the frequency.  There is no test, no studying, and you aren't dealing with squirrels or arrogant hams that claim that they have been using this or that frequency for years and The Johnny Come Lately SAR folks need to move off.  Are the radios more expensive, yes they can be.  But the sponsoring organization can typically assist with all that as well.  So why does this push persist?  I hear all this hubbub about the FCC taking away ham allocated freqs and either selling them off or reallocating them to part 90.  I personally don't see it happening, but if a large portion of the licensed hams are simply using the ham allocated bandwidth for stuff that is really part 90 use anyway, then why wouldn't they?
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K1CJS
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« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2013, 11:14:24 AM »

Here's my point on part 90 and EmComm.  Ham is equally licensed, and no ham can tell another to vacate a frequency.... 

Not entirely true--especially with emergency communication.  If a ham were to come up on a frequency that was being used for an emergency, the hams with the emergency traffic have every right to tell the interfering ham to move.  AAMOF, if the hams working the emergency wanted to make something of it, they could--and rightfully--file a complaint against the interfering station.

Other than that, I agree with your take on using ham radio for what part 90 communications could be used for, but hams have traditionally used their stations for aid and comfort purposes.  That is specifically for letting someones family in another area know that their family members are alright, letting other ham organizations know about the needs for any possible donations of goods in the affected areas and so on.  The current push to get hams MORE involved does indeed seem to fly in the face of the regs--

Part 97 : Sec. 97.113 Prohibited transmissions
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(5) Communications, on a regular basis, which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services.

--but the ARRL is pushing such communications, and the FCC and the government is not only condoning it, they're also promoting it.  Maybe they're figuring that it isn't on a regular basis--but it IS on a regular basis during the duration of the emergency situation which may last for days.  Go figure.
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LA9XSA
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« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2013, 05:53:06 PM »

No I am not a CB lover or operator,just a ham whose so called GO KITS consisit of cheap Regency CBs,small mag mount ants and a jump start batteries hidden some where in my car trunk or tool box in my pickem up truck for practical EMCOMMS. Prop is up on 20M CUL
Sometimes this can work out, and untrained volunteers can be useful in an emergency, especially if they can draw on their experience from getting on the air. But there's a saying that "in extreme situations we never rise to the occasion, we fall back on our training", and I think that's true for better or worse. Untrained volunteers risk getting in the way, especially in the initial phase of an emergency. If the emergency lasts longer, trained volunteers can be brought in from other counties or states, or new volunteers can be brought up to speed.
--but the ARRL is pushing such communications, and the FCC and the government is not only condoning it, they're also promoting it.  Maybe they're figuring that it isn't on a regular basis--but it IS on a regular basis during the duration of the emergency situation which may last for days.  Go figure.
There was a relatively recent rule change to let people participate in occasional emergency drills while "on the clock" - i.e. paid by their employer - but the other rules about emergency communictions have been in the rules for many years. The use of amateur radio in emergencies is one of the core reasons for its existence - along with fostering international good will, and technical education and innovation. Being there for them in emergencies is something that the public and the politicans expect in return for letting us use these valuable frequencies to play with, for next to no license fees, and it's been that way since amateur radio began.
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K1CJS
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« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2013, 04:51:02 AM »

...Being there for them in emergencies is something that the public and the politicans expect in return for letting us use these valuable frequencies to play with, for next to no license fees, and it's been that way since amateur radio began.

That's a little myopic.  The 'valuable' frequencies haven't been very valuable--until the craze of the past couple of decades  toward more and more wireless communications.  Ham radio has been around for much longer than that.  Also, the so called valuable frequencies are those in the UHF bands.  The frequencies below our 2 meter band aren't all that valuable--except to those who want to set up wired communications systems--like BPL.  Although there was help from the ARRL and others that contributed to the fall of BPL, it finally died from its own shortcomings.

The insistence that the frequency bands that we use may be taken away from us and sold to the highest bidder is a lot of hot air being expelled by the Chicken Little types who still insist that the sky is falling.  Yes, there is an outside chance that those UHF/XHF frequency bands may--MAY--end up like that, but that is all that it is--a chance, not a certainty.  

The FCC and other agencies of our and other governments have a hard enough time finding money and effort to police the traditional bands now.  Do you actually think that they're going to arbitrarily prohibit all amateur radio useages?  They can find but a handful of the pirates that inhabit broadcast bands now--and they find those only because those few have stations that aren't portable to the point that they can be easily moved around.
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KD8GTP
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« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2013, 05:22:49 PM »

EMCOMMers take note: The $40 Baofeng UV5R HT comes with a siren and flashing LED strobe. Perfect for imitating real public safety workers without breaking the bank.

That was great ! them whackers can save a few bucks buying one of them Baofeng radios Smiley
But seriously I love to see you whackers at each others throats, you are all a bunch of clowns, but great entertainment!
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LA9XSA
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« Reply #103 on: March 13, 2013, 05:55:00 AM »

The FCC and other agencies of our and other governments have a hard enough time finding money and effort to police the traditional bands now.  Do you actually think that they're going to arbitrarily prohibit all amateur radio useages?
Depends on who that highest bidder is. The FCC already is much more forceful in protecting critical frequencies such as aeronautical navaids, than they're about punishing more minor annoyances like guys holding AM ragchews in the CW/digital portion of an amateur band. How forceful the FCC or NTIA would be about protecting spectrum, would depend on what services would be affected. If over the horizon radar, HF internet, or some new idea takes off with substantial financial backing (including donations to politicians), the pressure on HF frequencies could increase.

The FCC is not likely to auction off 20 meters tomorrow. Something like that would require both congress to get involved, and international agreements to be renegotiated. But if amateurs are unwilling and unable to provide emergency communications, one of the fundamental reasons for the existence of the amateur service would be gone. In time, that could erode even the international HF allocations as member states withdraw support.

This is a rather hypothetical discussion though, since amateurs will keep volunteering for emergencies, and it's not like there's any great controversy about this being a good thing. I am pretty sure there's actually more people who are against medical doctors and psychiatrists responding to disasters than there's people against trained amateur volunteers doing their best to help out. I know about at least one notorious organization which sends representatives to disasters with the primary goal of coinvincing victims to refuse medical aid; they even have uniforms and celebrity spokespeople.

Maybe the vocal anti-emcommers could start a similar group that responds to disaster areas, to warn victims about those dangerous radio amateurs with their cancer-rays. Maybe the uniforms should be a bright yellow chainmaille suit to proect against the dangerious ham band energy fields? What celebrity would endorse it?
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W1JKA
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« Reply #104 on: March 13, 2013, 07:02:55 AM »

Quote
This is a rather hypothetical discussion though, since amateurs will keep volunteering for t those dangerous radio amateurs with their cancer-rays. Maybe the uniforms should be a bright yellow chainmaille suit to proect against the dangerious ham band energy fields? What celebrity would endorse it?

William Shatner or Leonard Nimoy, Beam me up to ARIES (sic) ARES Scotty
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 07:14:56 AM by W1JKA » Logged
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