Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Grandfathering Advanced Hams to Extra Class  (Read 24549 times)
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2012, 11:12:27 AM »

The Advanced class license test I took in 1980 was harder than the extra class test of today! At least thats the way I see it. I have both study guides.

Of course it should seem that way - you've had 32 years of learning since then!

I like my 2x2, I will stay where I am..

There is no requirement to change callsigns when upgrading. In fact, the only way to change your current callsign would be to request a vanity call (or let your license lapse).

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2012, 11:19:05 AM »

Look around this and other forums, and you'll see hams with Generals and Extras asking extremely basic "how do I make a dipole?" questions. This doesn't mean they're dumb; it means they just don't know. Often they don't even know the right questions to ask!

Eliminating the Extra won't fix that. It will only make the problem worse.

What "problem"?

The problem that we have amateurs with General and Extra licenses who don't know the BASICS of practical ham radio. Such as how to make a simple wire dipole. Stuff that used to be common knowledge for Novices.

That's a problem.

Since when has someone asking another Ham a question about the operational aspects of our hobby been a "problem" that needs "fixing"?  

Did YOU know everything there was to know about Ham Radio right after your got your first license?  

I knew enough to put a station on the air without having to ask such basic questions. And I started out as a Novice, not a General or Extra.

And what the heck ever happened to our age-old concept of "Elmering"?  

It's alive and well. Nothing wrong with it.

But, IMHO, a ham with an Extra should not have to ask such basic questions as are common here and elsewhere.

Again, that's not the fault of the ham who doesn't know! It's a fault of the process.

What you seem to be saying is that tasks such as making a simple wire dipole are so complex that even Extras need their hands held in order to do them. I say that's nonsense.


73 de Jim, N2EY

Logged
AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12784




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2012, 03:05:21 PM »

Part of the solution may be going back to the minimum operating experience for Extra - say 2 years of on-air HF operation in a log book.

KB1SF is right about one thing: we all had dumb questions when we started out but they didn't get posted on e-ham for all the world to look at  Grin  With google and other search engines it is far easier to look up answers today than it was getting from a book years ago. However, it appears that many find it easier to ask someone than to look it up.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 03:12:04 PM by AA4PB » Logged
KB1SF
Member

Posts: 411


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2012, 03:35:43 PM »

What you seem to be saying is that tasks such as making a simple wire dipole are so complex that even Extras need their hands held in order to do them. I say that's nonsense.

What's "nonsense" is the myopic expectation that our licensing system is (or should be) the sole source of learning in our Service.  

It's the absolutely baseless belief that seems to now run rampant in our Service (particularly among our "regulatory fundamentalists") that, once a person successfully passes an Extra Class exam, there's should be absolutely no need for them to learn anything else...or to (gasp!) ask "dumb" questions in online forums. Such people should have already "arrived" at the pinnacle of achievement.

Unfortunately, this whole idea is ludicrous on its face.  And it always has been.

For, if the material that's examined on the Extra Class exam is so absolutely ESSENTIAL for safe and courteous operation in our Service, why, then, are some 83 percent of all US licensed hams allowed to self-select themselves OUT of taking it?  

Or, to put it another way, if that so-called "Extra Class" material is so essential to maintaining good order and discipline in our Service, then it seems to me that only about 17 Percent of all US hams have now demonstrated their mastery of it because only about 17 percent now hold Extra Class licenses.  

So, once again, it seems I've exposed yet another glaring (I say fatal) deficiency in our so-called "incentive" licensing structure.

The bottom line here is that the Extra Class exam is nothing more than an "achievement" test vice an exam to determine one's mastery of essential competencies.  That fact, in turn, makes the whole Extra Class nonsense an "unnecessary regulatory barrier" (to use the FCC's legal terminology) to full access to otherwise already qualified (i.e. General Class) applicants to the PUBLIC airwaves that are the Amateur Radio bands.

And it's THAT inconvenient truth, Jim, that now makes the Extra Class exam systemically discriminatory (and therefore patently illegal to maintain and administer) under a whole plethora of 1990s-era US equal access laws.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF
kb1sf.blogspot.ca
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 03:46:35 PM by KB1SF » Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2012, 03:39:34 AM »

Part of the solution may be going back to the minimum operating experience for Extra - say 2 years of on-air HF operation in a log book.

Maybe. But such a requirement would be an uphill go because it would add some admin work for FCC.

More important, there never was a minimum operating exoerience requirement for Extra. All that existed was a requirement that you hold a Conditional, General or Advanced for at least 2 years before taking the Extra tests. What you actually did with the license didn't matter - youi could spend the entire time on VHF/UHF or not use the license at all; FCC didn't care.

KB1SF is right about one thing: we all had dumb questions when we started out but they didn't get posted on e-ham for all the world to look at  Grin  With google and other search engines it is far easier to look up answers today than it was getting from a book years ago. However, it appears that many find it easier to ask someone than to look it up.

So is the Extra-who-can't-make-a-dipole a problem or not?


73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
K9AIM
Member

Posts: 998




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 08:04:43 AM »

Change is almost always resisted, but why not go the way of the rest of the world on this and make using more than 200 watts only legal for those who hold an Extra class license?  We could grandfather/grandmother current hams to an interim phase of 1 year for them to learn all the Extra material if they feel it necessary to run high power... We could also have an honor system where new ham Extras would be limited to 200 watts for their first 90 days...

It would mean hams running high power would more likely be aware of safety.

It would also solve peripheral problems like how non Extras have only about 6 kHz available for standard CW on 40 meters in practice (7025-7031) and also DXpeditions which do not originate from the US and so don't necessarily realize most US hams cannot work them on 15, 20, 40, and 80 meters if they don't go up 25KHz from the band edge. It would also mean hams who do not know how to put up a dipole cannot legally utilize high power.  It would incentivize the Extra class for all those hams who think if you don't run 1000 watts you have no business on 75 meters.  It might even help them learn that a good antenna is more important than a linear...

What would be other advantages -- and the disadvantage(s) -- to such a change?
 
Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 10:47:34 AM »

Change is almost always resisted, but why not go the way of the rest of the world on this and make using more than 200 watts only legal for those who hold an Extra class license? 

Because it would take privileges away from hundreds of thousands of US hams.

That's a deal-killer right there. Even though the majority of US hams with Technician, General or Advanced licenses probably don't run over 200 watts, losing the privileges is a very hard sell. The big question they will ask is:

"I've been a ham for X years and never had a problem. Why should I lose those privileges now?

This same issue (losing existing privileges) is what caused such a ruckus about incentive licensing. 

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
K9AIM
Member

Posts: 998




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 02:45:49 PM »

So are you saying you support it for all future US licensees but that current license holders should be grandmothered (aka: grandfathered)?
Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3877




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2012, 02:53:25 PM »

So are you saying you support it for all future US licensees but that current license holders should be grandmothered (aka: grandfathered)?

I'm saying that any proposal which takes significant privileges away from already-licensed hams isn't going to get very far. Hams will oppose it, amateur groups will oppose it, (ARRL, NCVEC, equipment makers, clubs, etc.) and FCC will ask why it is so necessary.

If the rules are set up so that only Techs and Generals licensed after a certain date are affected, how do you tell who has the privileges and who doesn't?

73 de Jim, N2EY

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
K9AIM
Member

Posts: 998




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2012, 03:08:04 PM »

Let's say the law goes into effect 1/1/2013...  anyone licensed after that without an Extra class would be limited to 200 watts.
Nothing really can stop people from breaking rules except people themselves  (though there are probably some sorry hams running more than 2 kW this instant)

your only gripe with it seems to be logistics of enforcement?
Logged
AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12784




Ignore
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2012, 03:45:51 PM »

The logistics of enforcement is an issue. You would have to look up a call in the FCC database to determine the class of license and the initial issue date to determine what power level he was authorized to use.

In order to prevent downgrading privileges for existing hams you would have to permit those licensed before the effective date to continue to renew over the years and keep their high power privilege.
Logged
K9AIM
Member

Posts: 998




Ignore
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2012, 04:08:27 PM »

yeah, I acknowledge that.  But if the power privileges make more sense, it is probably worth the trouble. 

I still think giving present licensees an interim phase of 1 year to upgrade to Extra or lose high power privileges is fair enough to warrant giving the critics a deaf ear. When I complain that as an Advanced I don't have access to CW portions of bands even though I passed a 13wpm FCC-proctored code exam, it is suggested I should just take and pass the Extra.  The same tough love could be given to people who complain about losing access to high power
Logged
KB1BZR
Member

Posts: 79




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2012, 11:42:49 PM »

Those Generals sure got the ----   .. no ?

I recall such. Was a Novice..then
Logged
K7KBN
Member

Posts: 2785




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2012, 07:16:18 AM »

Those Generals sure got the ----   .. no ?
I recall such. Was a Novice..then

Yeah, it was just terrible.  So two weeks later my folks drove me to the Los Angeles FCC Office and I passed the Extra.  I didn't see what the big problem was and I still don't almost 50 years later.
Logged

73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
N6JSX
Member

Posts: 217




Ignore
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2012, 02:53:01 PM »

I gave up on the FCC doing anything that requires common-sense or not requiring white envelopes to each Commissioner (remember they are all either lawyers or from academia as WH political hacks).  Huh

I took the damn Extra test 10/2007, acing it - FCC NEVER again. I'm one of the many HAMs that had to take 4 written tests (170 questions) plus two code tests, while the newbies only take three tests (110 questions) to acquire all.  Angry   

The assassin-nine argument that Extra testing is needed to insure the VE system remains pure is !@#$%^&*bogus, Advanced were VE's too. The Extra test had maybe one or two VE questions where my 1993 Advanced test had more. Shocked

Now after +40yrs HAM'ing I am a 'real' Advanced & 'CB' Extra!  Roll Eyes

Kuby, N6JSX /8, MS-EET
Logged

Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!