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Author Topic: Android: learn fast CW with Koch method  (Read 26711 times)
PA0BLAH
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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2012, 05:10:56 AM »

In a press release for his book "Morse Code: Breaking the Barrier" N1IRZ says
Quote
In 1936, Ludwig Koch, a German psychologist, published the results of extensive research on Morse Code proficiency and showed how he trained students to copy at 12 words per minute in as little as 13.5 hours. That is by far the fastest Morse training program ever published.
the press release gets regurgitated all the time in many forms, but oddly the actual research is nowhere to be found on the web.

May be it was of strategical value in that pre-war time to keep it out of further publicity, or something else: Theologists,  lawyers, psychologist and military "officers" are not really viewed as scientific people.

I have never heard people learning in 13 exercising hours Morse code speed 12, and just as MZ0LEP emphasizes: more characters under your belt make it more difficult to add an extra one. It should have been a selected test group, selected in advance, what are the selection criteria?  May be all Bull Manure.

Recently psychology full professors were abdicated (fired), due to published research which was proved to be (and admitted to be) pure fantasy.  

Reasons / motivation: honour and fund raising.  

Remember the in Physics well known guys  with their cold fusion, palladium, heavy water, electrolyse. Possibly they thought: "It may be possible, when I publish it whole the world is going to try it out, and when successful, it is on our honour not them, the repeaters, and when not: How pity we did not exactly know how we did it but we did it."

That is the world.
And keep learning: When you are honest in behavior, you lose respect of suckers.

73 Bob
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 05:23:41 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
LB3KB
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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2012, 05:53:30 AM »

It was published.  The main reasons you can't find it on the web is that it was published in German and a long time ago.

73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com
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AB9NZ
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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2012, 07:43:56 PM »

  It would be interesting to learn who Ludwig Koch was, and how he implemented his method to achieve the amazing results he claimed back in the 30's. If he didn't need computers to teach 12 wpm in 13.5 hours, why wasn't his system adopted for 60 years? Is his technique being followed accurately today? Did he survive the war? Which side was he on? Was he an amateur? Any relics or photographs? Family? Surviving students or contemporaries?
  His original source work would sure be interesting to look at.
Very best of 73 de Tom, ab9nz, Mount Prospect,  Illinois
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2012, 04:52:05 AM »


Very best of 73 de Tom, ab9nz, Mount Prospect,  Illinois

You, you are a wise man Tom, in my opinion.

Don't be proud on this statement because the writer of this message  is a pig , a hound, a viper, stupid, tells only dogshit and what have you else in the vocabulary of the stayvertical alikes, that try to put you in a position they can oversee at the point of their basic level on the ladder they should be happy to climb for free without any effort and talents.

The Koch story may be even a hoax in order to get "Feind hört mit" to put in the wrong trail. Even in the German Wikipedia there is no reference found by this (=me) stupid pig-a-like hound.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 04:59:27 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
LX2GT
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2012, 05:07:36 AM »

Hello,

Googling around for a few minutes, I found the following: http://books.google.lu/books/about/Arbeitspsychologische_Untersuchung_der_T.html?id=yN8ktwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

The title reads 'Arbeitspsychologische Untersuchung der Tätigkeit bei der Aufnahme von Morsezeichen: Zugleich ein neues Anlernverfahren für Funker'

I would translate that as: Occupational psychological examination of the process of reading Morse Code: At the same time a new way of learning that process for radio operators.

Now, if one would be able to peek inside his work...
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 05:54:14 AM »

DF2OK published:

Titel:
'Arbeitspsychologische Untersuchung der Tätigkeit bei der Aufnahme von Morsezeichen, zugleich ein neues Anlernverfahren für Funker.' Umfang: 70 Seiten.

Das vollständige Druckwerk ist als PDF-Datei auf der im Juni 2003 erschienenen CD der AGCW e.V. zu finden.

Leider wurde diese Methode über Jahre ignoriert. Die Koch-Methode verhindert Frustration und vermittelt durch schnellen Lernerfolg Spaß an CW. Koch hat intensive Forschungen über Morseausbildung in den verschiedensten Varianten durchgeführt und hat seine Methode immer weiter verfeinert. Nur wenn der spürbare Erfolg da ist, wird die Motivation bleiben. CW-Lernen ist eine "Strecke", die man durchhalten muss. Aber man kann sie sich angenehm gestalten.

Ludwig Koch hat in den 30igern einer von ihm ausgesuchten Gruppe von Schülern alle Zeichen mit Tempo 60 in nur 12.5 Stunden (!) dauerhaft beigebracht. Später dann hat er erfolgreich Militärfunker ausgebildet.

Infos zu Koch-Methode gibt es nach meinem derzeitigen Kenntnisstand (leider!) nur in englischer Sprache. Diese Infos sind aus dem Internet sowie dem MFJ-Buch: "Morse Code: Breaking the Barrier" Es ist von MFJ unter der Nummer MFJ-3400 u.a. bei ZiCo zu bekommen. Der Autor ist Dave Finley, N1IRZ, der einer der erfolgreichen Anwender der Koch-Methode war. Mehr darüber in den Links weiter unten.
 ---
Throw it in Bable fish, perhaps you can understand  what he wrote, in the way you understand what I write,  it is German, and in the time that I learned German, French, English and Spanish languages, not to forget Latin and Greek, you could acquire Morse code, and your HAM license, go to the disco and ride your motorbike or girl, so sorry I appear so stupid, because I had  less time left for all that fun.

73 Bob

Less understanding others can be more. Promote CW
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 06:01:09 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
LX2GT
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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2012, 06:49:15 AM »

Quote
Das vollständige Druckwerk ist als PDF-Datei auf der im Juni 2003 erschienenen CD der AGCW e.V. zu finden.

That is the interesting bit. Telling you his work is contained on the June 2003 CD of the AGCW, in the form of a PDF. Would be quite interesting to take a read I guess.
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AB9NZ
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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2012, 06:51:11 AM »

Luc, Bob, I came across the that too. If it was peer reviewed literature would it be copyrighted or could somebody scan it to the web? In the QST archives there is a 1972 article by O'Keefe that mentions the The Koch method, but also casts doubt on his science, so he probably was able to read the text.
  In some religions the priests access the ancient texts and then interpret them for the people, but for a deeper understanding of the man and his teachings it would be nice to bring his words back to life.
                      73 de Tom ab9nz Mount Prospect, Illinois
  
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 07:14:09 AM by AB9NZ » Logged
AB9NZ
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« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2012, 08:11:33 PM »

Here is a bit of an update. Silent key William G. Pierpont's book "The Art & Skill of Radio Telegraphy" is available for free download, and its 29th chapter gives his interpretation of Koch's work. There isn't any mention of Koch actually knowing Morse code, and surprisingly it included a graph paper type chart, sending dahs and dits with different tones, that 12 words per minute is the optimal speed for learning, and describes setbacks similar to those described in the LCWO forums by members "Badger" and "Izlep" http://lcwo.net/forum/763/Why-is-this-so-hard. Quite a bit different than what N1IRZ says while hawking his book "Morse Code: Breaking the Barrier"; "You can get an idea of how long it's going to take after you've mastered a few characters. Keep track of your training sessions (some software will do this for you) and calculate your hours-per-character rate (or characters-per-hour if you're really fast!). That, multiplied by the 43 characters in the amateur Morse test, will give a rough idea of how long it's going to take."
      73 de Tom, ab9nz, Mount Prospect, Illinois     
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LB3KB
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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2012, 11:06:15 PM »

AB9NZ,

I get the impression that you want to dismiss Koch's research for one reason or another.


The essence of what it states about dual pitch is that the group that was subjected to it was learning faster than the group that was not.
While that is probably news to a lot of people, it makes perfect sense to me.

Dual pitch has been available in Just Learn Morse Code since 2005.


73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2012, 01:16:59 AM »

AB9NZ,

Dual pitch has been available in Just Learn Morse Code since 2005.


It is not what you want to learn, something like you want to learn as child to walk and go exercising on a trike, 2 backwheels one steering frontwheel with paddles fixed attached, hence shorter then half the diameter of the wheel.

DJ1YFK tried left ear dots and right ear dashes. That is a dreadfull experience.

However I  learned Wabun, with dots in the right ear and dashes stereo. That was remarkably faster then mono reproduction.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 01:19:03 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
AB9NZ
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« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2012, 06:48:05 AM »

  Sigurd, I'll bet I want what you want. I want more and more people to experience the joy of CW operation. My fear is that since Koch is presented as the fastest and easiest way to learn Morse, if someone tries and fails with it (like myself), they won't try any other methods. It's fair to say that your hard work has given a great gift to the CW community, and that I've given nothing (other than encouragement).
   Looking through Ray's yahoo group and Fabian's forums I don't seem to be seeing anywhere near the same results as those presented by Dave Finley in his press release. Looking at the the original source work to see if something is being missed seems like a logical step. Koch seems to almost always be abandoned for Farnsworth, good or bad? Perhaps something as simple as repeating the computer sent code with a practice oscillator would be an aid to learning the characters?
   I think an open discussion of learning methods is healthy, and that good research is never afraid of having a light shined on it.
   I use your feature packed Just Learn Morse almost every day for speed building, but must admit that I sometimes use that other program just to hear the funny old world English spelling in the word bank.
       Very best of 73 de Tom ab9nz, Mount Prospect, Illinois
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2012, 07:13:55 AM »

Tom,

I think it is worthful the questionize Kochs results.

When I see approaching 40 000 people subscribed to LCWO, I think DJ1YFK can show the statistics, he has available.
As a man with  scientific education, I expect he will do that, for the purpose of finding the truth.

When Koch could assemble a class of "students" that mastered 12w/minute in 13 hours (clever selected, because when you select 10000 students that could do it in 13 hours, it is easily to say : "Or were it 13 students in 10000 hours?"
I simple do not believe that, seeing the results in lcwo.

Bob PAoBLAH de enige echte. (as seen in Electron)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 07:44:27 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
LB3KB
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« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2012, 03:09:10 PM »

Bob, you're missing the obvious.

How many people tries out an online solution with no investment is never going to give you useful statistics.

I took an online MIT course on circuits and electronics this spring.  It was pretty darn difficult.  Out of more than 150,000 people that signed up for the course, only 7,100 earned a certificate (passing grade).

Does that mean that MIT misrepresented how hard the course would be ?  It's tempting to jump to that conclusion if you don't dig deeper.

Digging deeper is possible for MIT because they have more information about the students than other offerings do.  It turns out that out of those 150,000+ people that signed up, only 69,000 took a look at the first problem set.  Only 26,000 earned a point on the first problem set.  And so it continues to the end.

The point really is that 7,100 people were commited to learning this, had the time and brains to do it, and MIT provided them with the tools to do it.  And that beats the heck out of any traditional teaching methods.


73
LB3KB Sigurd
justlearnmorsecode.com
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 03:43:31 PM by LB3KB » Logged
M0LEP
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« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2012, 04:49:22 PM »

Koch? Farnsworth? They're not gods. They're just tools. They may be useful for some. They won't help everyone. If they work for you, great! If you've given them a fair crack and they're not working, then try something else.
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