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Author Topic: P5 Interest Survey  (Read 15478 times)
NU1O
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Posts: 2762




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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2012, 08:31:12 AM »

Chris: I'm not sure if you are aware that the Interest Level botton is also a dropdown box with various donation amounts listed down to $10. He probably should have started out with that amount as the default because I'm sure it has scared away other potential donars. And I have no plans to make a donation until I learn more about his NGO and how the funds will be used.

John K7KB


John,

I don't know if you meant to use "button" instead of "botton" but I agree it was not very smart to start the donations at $5,000.  I don't think it will scare many away when they see he will accept $10. Of all the problems he is likely to encounter I think that is at, or pretty close to the bottom.

I have never asked for a survey so I don't know anything about them.


What was stupid and an shows K6VVA is not the brightest bulb in the room was including those two North Korean flags on the survey page. The message he is sending, whether he realizes it or not, is that he supports the regime in North Korea, and I don't have to tell you that was just plain dumb.  If a politician who doesn't believe any NGO's should go to NK gets hold of that survey the North Korean flags will be the first thing he/she notices.

73,

Chris/NU1O
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N2RJ
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Posts: 1237




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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2012, 11:59:38 AM »

What was stupid and an shows K6VVA is not the brightest bulb in the room was including those two North Korean flags on the survey page. The message he is sending, whether he realizes it or not, is that he supports the regime in North Korea, and I don't have to tell you that was just plain dumb.  If a politician who doesn't believe any NGO's should go to NK gets hold of that survey the North Korean flags will be the first thing he/she notices.

73,

Chris/NU1O

So what do you want him to do? Put two American flags?

Nothing says "please let me operate in North Korea" like a flag from one of their sworn enemies.

The flag represents the country, not the regime.
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NU1O
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Posts: 2762




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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2012, 12:57:45 PM »

What was stupid and an shows K6VVA is not the brightest bulb in the room was including those two North Korean flags on the survey page. The message he is sending, whether he realizes it or not, is that he supports the regime in North Korea, and I don't have to tell you that was just plain dumb.  If a politician who doesn't believe any NGO's should go to NK gets hold of that survey the North Korean flags will be the first thing he/she notices.

73,

Chris/NU1O

So what do you want him to do? Put two American flags?

Nothing says "please let me operate in North Korea" like a flag from one of their sworn enemies.

The flag represents the country, not the regime.

The flag most certainly does represent the current regime in power.  When the Communists took over control of Russia they changed the flag (several times) and I clearly remember one of Boris Yeltsin's first acts when he assumed power was to change the flag back to the traditional tricolor. By your theory Germany should still have the Nazi flag.

Take a look at other countries which have had regime changes and you will notice the flag, and usually also the national anthem are the first things changed.

Far be it for me to give him advice but I would have omitted any flags.

73,

Chris/NU1O
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 01:23:51 PM by NU1O » Logged
NU1O
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Posts: 2762




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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2012, 02:25:41 PM »


NU1O: You have given me a LOT to think about. 


Whether you agree with me or disagree (and most DXers will disagree) if you gave this matter some serious consideration that's all I can ask for. I take that as a high compliment.


I do have a question, and I look forward to your reply: if Amateur Radio is supposed to transcend politics, then shouldn't we want this type of P5 operation to occur?  


I love talking to people from different backgrounds and different cultures. That's probably what keeps me firing up the rig and amplifier. I make it a point to find the other ham's QTH on a map, and I try to pick up some phrases in as many differnt languages as I can.

About six months ago I worked ST2UOK from the University of Khartoum.  Sudan has a terrible record of human rights abuses and over 2 million have been killed via atrocities or in their wars with Southern Sudan. Yet, I actually had two short chats with female students from the University of Khartoum. I felt good after the QSO. Much more so than if I had talked to two male students. Although it's a longshot either become hams at least these young ladies were allowed to speak to an American male. And since the station is affiliated with the engineering department these two young women may break another barrier as there are few female engineers in the West, not to speak of the Islamic world.

The expedition to Yemen reached out to a local school and showed some of the students the station and they were allowed to listen to to QSOs in progress. That is fostering goodwill, in my opinion.

Sid May, ET3SID, has spent about 15 years in Ethiopia and has just about single-handedly kept the University station operating. Here is a quote from his QRZ bio:

"No charge is made for the students. My only fear is that Amateur radio will be dead when I leave. Visiting hams should help, most do not."

He mentioned one ham, ZL1RS, who provided much help. I assume it was equipment but Sid did not elaborate.

Part 97.1 of the FCC's rules and regulations pertaining to Amateur Radio lays out the basis and purpose for Amateur Radio. Section (e) states " Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill. "

When I think of goodwill I think of the friendships made between people of different races, ethnicity, and political philosophies by their conversations over the radio.  What goodwill will be created during K6VVA's proposed trip to North Korea? Do you think the regime will allow him to setup his station in a school and let some of the students speak, as was the case with ST2UOK, or a Boy Scout Jamboree?  Hell will freeze over before that ever happens.

Kindly answer a question for me.  Do you think the proposed expedition to North Korea is creating any of the goodwill that section (e) of Part 97.1 had in mind, or are the North Korean officials just looking to extort as much as possible because they are fully aware there is considerable demand by amateurs to contact a station holding a North Korean call sign?

I have worked all the countries W2IRT ticked off. Cuba, Vietnam, The People's Republic of China, Libya, Palestine, and Iran. However, in the majority of those countries I worked citizens of those countries. That is fostering goodwill. Working a foreigner holding a temporary license fosters no goodwill between the people of both countries.

I normally do not let politics interfere with my radio activities but as bad as some of the aforementioned countries are with respect to human rights there is something about that regime in North Korea which caused me to change my normal policy of not letting politics interfere with what countries I communicate with. 

Maybe it was the documentary I watched about a North Korean prison guard who risked his life by crossing a mine field to enter South Korea. He described hunger in those prison camps as so bad that when a group of children found a single kernel of corn in the feces of a cow a fight ensued over who would get to eat the kernel of disease ridden corn.  I'll never forget that interview so long as I live.

If nothing else comes out of this perhaps we should at least rethink what goals a DXpedition should strive to accomplish other than handing out needed QSLs. 

73,

Chris/NU1O
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W1NK
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« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2012, 02:28:00 PM »

Quote
I saw a lot of discussion about 5A7A and 7O6T not being allowed to work 4X, because that was the condition of the license.

I could only imagine the level of "discussion" if one of the conditions of the K6VVA/P5 license was not being allowed to work the USA!   Shocked
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AE5X
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« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2012, 08:17:22 PM »

New info regarding P5/K6VVA:
http://www.k6vva.com/p5/p5infoupdate1.pdf

John AE5X
http://www.ae5x.com/blog
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KH6DC
Member

Posts: 666




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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2012, 09:05:39 PM »

Quote
I saw a lot of discussion about 5A7A and 7O6T not being allowed to work 4X, because that was the condition of the license.

I could only imagine the level of "discussion" if one of the conditions of the K6VVA/P5 license was not being allowed to work the USA!   Shocked

That would be unfortunate like when Israel was excluded from 7O6T operations.
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73 and Aloha,
de Delwyn, KH6DC
K0IZ
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Posts: 742




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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2012, 11:45:46 PM »

All politics aside, I'm upset that the proposal is for CW only.  I only work phone.  I suppose anyone who puts on a DXpedition can set any criteria they want.  But to justify only CW because some 12K previously worked P5 ("majority" on SSB), looks like a big stretch.  Perhaps it should only be a PSK operation, since I doubt anyone has that in the P5 log.
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NU1O
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2012, 02:25:39 AM »


 I read K6VVA's update with great interest.  It's too bad he will not participate in a public discourse and will only issue press releases. I'd like to know who the NGO is ahead of time but that's shrouded in secrecy. K6VVA must have learned those technique from his friends in Pyongyang.  

There were complaints about the recent expedition which put the Sovereign Order of Malta on the air for 4 days. K6VVA is talking about a 4 day trip to an island off North Korea using vertical antennas and he has no assurances he will be allowed to use a 500 watt amplifier. The only station on the East Coast likely to break that pileup is W3LPL.

With regard to K6VVA's excuses for the rampant hunger in North Korea he has demonstrated he is nothing but an apologist for a very brutal regime, and I can not let his remarks go unchallenged as he omits the obvious.

The number of malnourished children (and adults) in North Korea is indeed a tragedy and pictures of starving children are always heart breaking.  According to K6VVA the reason for rampant hunger in North Korea is there have been some bad floods and bad harvests during the past 15 years.

The reasons for widespread hunger in North Korea are fairly well known by anybody who pays attention to foreign news. The main cause of rampant hunger in the DPRK is due to their choice of their economic system. I can't think of one country which produces bountiful harvests when collective farms are the order of the day. North Korea must also contend with their excessive spending for the conventional military, their nuclear weapons program, and the huge cost of maintaining a police state. It certainly doesn't help if your country is run by a dictator where dissent can mean death or spending the rest of your life in a concentration camp.  Bad ideas go unchallenged when they are made by somebody with great power.

The DPRK created its first nuclear energy plants, with help from the USSR, in the early 1960's. Eventually the DPRK used the enriched uranium to produce nuclear weapons. In 2002 the US State Department informed North Korea they knew North Korea was enriching uranium to create nuclear weapons, and in 2003  North Korea admitted to the USA they possessed nuclear weapons.

Over the following years there were agreements signed which would've provided North Korea amongst other things, "clean" nuclear energy since they desperately need energy. They also would have been given food aid, fertilizer, and new farming equipment so they could modernize their agricultural sector. For this aid North Korea would have to disband its nuclear weapons program. North Korea agreed to these terms but they violated every agreement they signed and on October 9th, 2006 North Korea announced they had detonated a nuclear device.  

One would think the North Koreans might have learned a few things from the collapse of the Soviet Union, or China's tremendous growth these past two decades after their economic system was made free. I guess the problem is that once attained, power is not given up willingly. Also, can the weather in South Korea be very much different from that in North Korea? I believe Seoul is less than 50 kilometers from the DMZ yet the South Koreans have no trouble feeding their own populace or donating large amounts of food to North Korea.

North Korea spends unparalleled amounts of its GDP on its conventional military, and its all powerful and ubiquitous police state.  If it had disbanded its nuclear program as it promised, it would be receiving enough food aid from the US and other countries to more than make up any shortages. They'd also be receiving fertilizer and modern farm equipment from South Korea. The regime in North Korea elected to continue its nuclear weapons program knowing full well there would not be enough resources to feed their own people properly but made that decision nevertheless. Quite simply they elected to have nuclear weapons rather than food for their people.

I did find one thing illuminating about this update. The reason for K6VVA's level of interest survey which asked how much you'd be willing to donate to the expedition is because K6VVA is being extorted by the North Koreans. They are probably shopping this DXpedition around and want a firm commitment from him as to how much money he will turn over.  I have a suggestion for those who  
who are not in favor of this trip: check the $15,000 donation level and when he comes up far short of what he told the North Koreans he could raise they just might make this enemy sympathizer a permanent resident of IOTA AS-097!

If you don't believe there is a Quid pro Quo, money to the regime for his license just read this excerpt from his latest update:

"The U.S.A. NGO Humanitarian activities in the D.P.R.K. as a part of this combined P5
Project proposal must be approved by D.P.R.K. Officials. That’s the way things work
over there, but any future donations associated with bringing this P5 Project Proposal to
fruition will be subject to written approval by all requisite D.P.R.K. entities for a P5 license,
and an element of mutual trust required to operate first, with donations to follow AFTER
the expedition is done."

Finally, I wish K6VVA would stop perverting the meaning of goodwill and friendship.  Part 95 (e) speaks about international goodwill and friendship as a reason for amateur radio. What I believe they had in mind are the friendships which develop between amateur radio operators due to radio transmissions from hams in different countries, who have differing backgrounds, religions, and may come from differing ethic groups. Since North Korea does not allow its citizens to become amateur radio operators no goodwill among amateurs is possible if this trip goes off as planned. Section 95 (e) was certainly not contemplating any goodwill from a ham upholding his end of an extortion scheme!  Make no mistake, that's what the North Koreans are attempting to do.  It's actually a minor offense compared to some of the crimes they've committed since they took control of North Korea.

73,

Chris/NU1O
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NU1O
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Posts: 2762




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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 02:40:48 AM »

All politics aside, I'm upset that the proposal is for CW only.  I only work phone.  I suppose anyone who puts on a DXpedition can set any criteria they want.  But to justify only CW because some 12K previously worked P5 ("majority" on SSB), looks like a big stretch.  Perhaps it should only be a PSK operation, since I doubt anyone has that in the P5 log.

I suspect there are other reasons for the all code expedition, just as I suspect it's the North Koreans who are dictating he operate from some island and not Pyongyang or some other other city.

73,

Chris/NU1O
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W5DQ
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2012, 11:43:03 AM »

I hesitate to add to this thread, which is quickly becoming more political than amateur radio related, but cant resist reposting a snippit from your post above:

"I not only hope to undermine his support in the amateur community, I hope to insure he never makes this trip to North Korea."
73,
Chris/NU1O


I have a feeling that statement is not going to win you many friends or garner much support here on this forum.  I sure would like to have a shot at working P5, and if he can swing it, so be it.    73, Gene AF3Y


Having personally known Rick K6VVA for several years by way of the Visalia International DX Convention and the IOTA program there, I feel it safe to say that his intentions are totally above board and he'll do everything within his control to ensure what he says is 100% on the up and up. What happens to the money/food/support once it has been delivered to P5 is anyone guess as the control of it is well beyond anyone's control outside of P5.

I will be donating as Rick requests and I sincerely hope I am able to get a P5 confirmation. This will be a memoriable event if I can swing that.

If anyone feels as strong about this issue as NU1O appears to do, then it is up to them and their conscience to decide which way they will go - support or boycott.
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Gene W5DQ
Ridgecrest, CA - DM15dp
www.radioroom.org
N2RJ
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« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2012, 01:00:06 PM »

I have no doubt that "The locust" has good intentions, and anyone who even knows a little about the situation should know exactly what you said - you can't control what happens to any aid once it reaches the country. The UN WFP and others have delivered aid to North Korea... yet people starve and eat dirt, while dear leader and his friends feast. His son, the new supreme leader certainly doesn't look like he's starving one bit.

There's nothing realistically anyone outside can do to change the regime. They rule a brainwashed population with an iron fist and the threat of extreme force for you and 3 generations of your descendants if you fall out of line. Not to mention they have the bomb and quite possibly China helping them out.
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NU1O
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« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2012, 03:06:16 PM »

W5DQ & N2RJ,

At least both of you will admit that aid is going where the regime wants it to go.  The chances of the people seeing any extra food or some medicine are virtually nil. That being the case make no mistake K6VVA is only helping out the North Korean regime, and since no average North Koreans will be exposed to Amateur Radio what's the purpose of this trip other than putting P5 in the log of a lucky few thousand?  Actually most of his contacts will be with Japan.

Why can't your friend at least tell the truth about why their is rampant hunger in North Korea?  He comes off as an apologist for the regime when he parrots the party line. Is going to North Korea for four days really worth selling your soul to the devil?

W5DQ, there is huge difference between meeting somebody at a DX convention, even if it's many years in a row, and actually being fiends with somebody where you learn how they think, what they believe in, in essence the moral quality of the man. I hope you both understand the difference because K6VVA is risking much by dealing with the North Koreans and the both of you just endorsed this venture with your reputations.

73,

Chris/NU1O

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W5DQ
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« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2012, 04:03:17 PM »

W5DQ & N2RJ,

At least both of you will admit that aid is going where the regime wants it to go.  The chances of the people seeing any extra food or some medicine are virtually nil. That being the case make no mistake K6VVA is only helping out the North Korean regime, and since no average North Koreans will be exposed to Amateur Radio what's the purpose of this trip other than putting P5 in the log of a lucky few thousand?  Actually most of his contacts will be with Japan.

Why can't your friend at least tell the truth about why their is rampant hunger in North Korea?  He comes off as an apologist for the regime when he parrots the party line. Is going to North Korea for four days really worth selling your soul to the devil?

W5DQ, there is huge difference between meeting somebody at a DX convention, even if it's many years in a row, and actually being fiends with somebody where you learn how they think, what they believe in, in essence the moral quality of the man. I hope you both understand the difference because K6VVA is risking much by dealing with the North Koreans and the both of you just endorsed this venture with your reputations.

73,

Chris/NU1O



"At least both of you will admit that aid is going where the regime wants it to go." ...... I never admitted ANYTHING. I simply stated that once it was out of the first party's hands, the control over it was beyond the first party's influence.

--------

"... there is huge difference between meeting somebody at a DX convention, even if it's many years in a row, and actually being fiends with somebody where you learn how they think, what they believe in, in essence the moral quality of the man. I hope you both understand the difference because K6VVA is risking much by dealing with the North Koreans and the both of you just endorsed this venture with your reputations." ..... 

Granted Rick and I might not be life long friends but I need no lecturing from the likes of you to tell me about whom I want to consider a friend or not and how to deal with them - AT ANY LEVEL OR EVENT. If you have a problem with Rick's proposal, I'd STRONGLY suggest you take it up with him as he has the answers that it appears you desperately are trying to determine on your own volitia. I have no input to how, when or where Rick decides to attempt to conduct ham radio activities but I do applaude him for his efforts. I think I know Rick better than you since it appears you have never met him nor spoke to him directly about his ideas on how to get a P5 DXpedition going and if it did come to light that there was any nefarious dealings happening, I would be one of the first to ostersize him (or any other ham for that matter) in those type of dealings. But I have risked nothing in making the statement I made previously about my OPINION of a fellow ham nor will I print my OPINION of you lest eHAM ban me from the website. It's people like you that seem to take an extreme pleasure in stirring the pot and then stepping back to watch it boil over.

If you have issues with this planned DXpedition, and it strongly appears you have some personal issues to deal with over it, I would suggest that you go direct to the source and lay out your feelings. I'm sure Rick would be willing to listen to you providing you approached him in an adult manner and no go in with guns blazing. If you feel that this is a detriment to the American way of life, I'm sure the FBI or State Department would just love to hear from you. If you really have a 'stiffy' towards Rick, why don't you go direct to the ARRL and complain to the DXCC desk to get them to tell him NO MATTER WHAT, they will not approve his P5 contacts no matter if he is authorized by the PDRK government or not.

Until then, as far as I am concerned, you can keep your comments about Rick to yourself UNTIL you can substantiate your accusations. Some of the crap you're spewing borders on slander IMHO.
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Gene W5DQ
Ridgecrest, CA - DM15dp
www.radioroom.org
KD8MJR
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« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2012, 04:45:15 PM »

I don't know why people are getting worked up over this, it's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN at least not anytime soon.
Things with P5 are heating up every single day and the chances of this are a lot less now than even 5 years ago so why get worked up.
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