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Author Topic: Selling "airtime" on ham radio  (Read 117817 times)
KE2TR
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Posts: 190




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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 05:32:37 AM »

Wow you are a self apointed king of ham radio, should I be impressed or do you want me to get on my knee's and bow down.
Your the on;ly guy here who is waving his fist and maybe you dont want someone to build a station that would as the YCC guys say cause I was a memeber back in the 90ies is kick your but, you make me laugh cause its the world acording to YOUR RULES nobody else, and you say your not riding your high horse, lol.
What gets me is if someone who wants to offer a service to guys who dont have the means and property to be able to contest from and is able to offer the Dream Shot to these guys, why not but its BB like yourself that say no. Sounds like you have a personal vendeta to whoever is doing this and your agenada is personal, why dont you grow up and get with the times, maybe your still stuck in the sixty's.
You know back in the 90ies when I was building my smallish station in the burbs it was guys like you I rememeber that would tell me I was building a second teir station and that I had to stack my yagi's 1 WL apart to get any gain. Well I did what I set out to do and had fun maybe cause I didn't take the guys like you seriosly, I didnt care if my call was in the top billing in the scores but I assembled a group of guys, we had fun and we placed in these contest at the top. What I am trying to say it wasn't about me it was about a group of hams as a team and to me as long as I have been in this hobby its always about a good group of hams but you are about you and thats why guys like you will kill this hobby. You make me LOL, maybe cause you didnt think of this idea first is maybe why your soo against it or some changes in this hobby and look at this post your the only lifer here blowin his horn and from all of what you done I can see that you like telling folks what to do, its your way or the high way plus you cant  be resonable.
As far as whoever is building these stations I am sure they wouldn't invest the time and effort in doing this without doing the legal things first and I am sure there not afraid of some cowboy like you.
Have a nice day peewee....
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KE2TR
Member

Posts: 190




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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 10:18:14 AM »

N1CX the way you are going after this subject it clearly shows you have some sort of personal agenada, if you contacted the ARRL and they told you there is nothing wrong here what in the world do you think the FCC is gonna think. I dont know but from what you have stated what you do maybe you build stations to but have no were near the computer savy to do remote systems and maybe thats your whole stand down attitude on this subject. Sounds to me that you have a personal problem yourself and have a very close mind to new idea's. There is only one other ham on this forum who says he is against it and he probably doesnt realize how the service is presented, he is taking your word for it and belive me you seem to know how to swist words around, more like BS and hot air to me. Grin
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KK0G
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Posts: 47


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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 10:30:08 AM »

...........You show me where it says in Part 97 that this IS LEGAL AND ALLOWED to accept payment for airtime. You can't.............

Of course we can't show where it says it's legal and allowed, that's not how laws work. Laws do NOT tell us what we are allowed to do, they only tell us what we are not allowed to do. If there is no law restricting an act then by definition it is legal.
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WB4LCN
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Posts: 134


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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2012, 11:59:40 AM »

I'll agree with K6OK. I built a fabulous remote station on a 2000 ft mountain top with a 60 ft. tower and four antennas. I allow a retired friend use my remote station while I'm at work. He also pays me for some of the electricity and the Internet connection. After 5 pm, he knows to sign off and turn the station over to me for the evening. Weekends are mine too, unless I'm away and my friend want to operate. We are both flexible.

Though I don't actually make a profit - not trying to, I can see that having enough property and someone renting out a shack to a ham might be a great way to get around having a small, postage stamp sized lot where putting up a formidable antenna may be impossible.

The FCC rule of not making a profit applies to on the air activity only. I would love to own or manage a large mountainous property and build a few towers and shacks to rent out - building those systems would be fun - as was my remote station.

Another way to do it would be to make memberships available - like a time share. There's a bunch of different ways to arrange it.

dave Smiley
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First, make it work, then make it pretty.
Yaesu Rigs: Kenwood TS-480HX, FT-8900R, FTM-350AR (Bluetooth motorcycle mobile), VX-8DR, SB-102 boat anchor (built one as a kid)

Moderate Spock: "Live for a reasonable amount of time and scrape by."
W5DQ
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Posts: 1209


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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2012, 11:46:10 AM »

Im no lawyer and dont play one on TV but this sounds illegal to me. But, our friends ....and I use the term very loosely... at the league seem to be able to do as they please when they please without the FCC hassling them. The FCC attacked Glenn Baxter..who I will agree is a nuisance and probably a mental case for broadcasting.....yet the league is allowed to broadcast and promote its own web site for $$ and the FCC does nothing.

I refer you to Part 97 section 97.111-a.5.b.5 and 6 for authorized ONE-WAY transmissions such as W1AW transmits (i.e. bulletins and Morse Code practice). Using W1AW station for personal use is FREE to all amateurs with proper bona fides (i.e. a valid amateur license for US amatuer operations). There is no $$$ (as you put it) involved. Please show us proof where the ARRL is making money off the use of it's W1AW station. Promoting a website is NOT 'pecuniary interest' as related to amatuer radio operations. I have never seen where the League has advertised or promoted 'sales or profit interests' in any bulletin but rather mentions that if anyone is interested in more INFORMATION (there's that word again), contact the League.

Baxter is a nut case and has violated almost every regulation in Part 97. The FCC did not attack him. They upheld the fact that he was in violation and that is why he has run afoul of the FCC. Baxter and the ARRL are opposing ends of the spectrum and I fail to see how any ham can remotely try to compare them Huh They ought to put Baxter and his VE buddy both in the looney bin and weld the door shut!!!!

W5DQ
ARRL Life Member

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Gene W5DQ
Ridgecrest, CA - DM15dp
www.radioroom.org
WB2WIK
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Posts: 20634




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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »

If I understand the situation correctly, I'd say it's completely legal.

Hams have actually been doing this for many decades in the form of "club membership" requirements.

There are many ham clubs that have permanent stations set up and they don't charge hams to pass traffic on them, or by the hour to use the equipment.  But, you must be a club member to gain access to the equipment, and that might be $1000 a year, or whatever they decide it will be.  If you don't like it, don't join the club!

There are remote controlled HF stations on the air like this, and have been for decades.

When "autopatch" was popular on VHF-UHF repeaters, although some repeater owners allowed open access to those, they were never required to do so.  Many systems were owned by clubs, and if you wanted to use the autopatch, you had to join the club.  And membership dues could be whatever they wanted to charge.  Nobody was forced to join a club or use the autopatch, or use the repeater.  But if they wanted use of the hardware, they had to be a club member.

To me, all these scenarios are very similar and have been going on for a really long time.  I can't recall any being deemed nor judged unlawful.

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AA4PB
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Posts: 12981




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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 04:43:41 PM »

My opinion (and it is only MY opinion) is that there is a difference between a non-profit club whose members contribute dues in order to cover the cost of maintaining a repeater, remote base, or contest station and someone who sets up a for-profit company to install and maintain a remote base and charge users a per-hour fee for using it. While the latter may be technically legal, it is a very "slippery slope". It would be more like a company setting up an autopatch and charging users a per-minute fee for using it in order to make a profit.
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WB2WIK
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Posts: 20634




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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2012, 01:41:24 PM »

I don't see much difference.

A lot of the HF remote bases on the air, including some that have been around for decades, are privately owned by one person with no club involved.  The WA6TWF "Super Station" here in southern California is but one example.

Another example is the PAPA System here in southern CA.  It's a network of a dozen 440 MHz mountaintop repeaters, some of which are D-star, and some of which are IRLP nodes.  It's all privately owned by one guy.  To support the system, you become a "member," which provides you access privileges to the linking and to the IRLP node features, etc.

Any visitor passing through can use one of the repeaters, but won't be able to use all the features, such as turning the links on or IRLP; those are reserved for "members only," and membership is $120 a year.  Not bad, for those who really use it; but kind of expensive if you want to use it a couple of times a year.

In that case, there is sort of a "club," but the club doesn't own anything: One indivual does.  And everyone is perfectly happy with that, the system works great.
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WB4LCN
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Posts: 134


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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2012, 03:05:02 PM »

Isn't HRO, AES and other Ham stores making a profit off Ham Radio? Isn't the radio manufacturers making a profit off Ham Radio. If you follow your suggestion to its logical conclusion, we'll need to go back to the Marconi days and home-brew everything in order to be properly legal.

HRO, to name one, sells us the 'Ham Radio experience' whenever we buy a rig there. Same with building out a station and renting out the place to someone. We are selling the 'experience', we are not asking anyone to get on the air a run commercials for payment. I think you may be stretching the FCC rule on this to says something that it's not saying.

dave Smiley
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First, make it work, then make it pretty.
Yaesu Rigs: Kenwood TS-480HX, FT-8900R, FTM-350AR (Bluetooth motorcycle mobile), VX-8DR, SB-102 boat anchor (built one as a kid)

Moderate Spock: "Live for a reasonable amount of time and scrape by."
N9LCD
Member

Posts: 181




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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2012, 05:51:25 PM »

Where and how do I sign up?

I've been licensed 20 years and I've only worked HF twice as a "guest op" at HV3SJ.  Kind of expensive!! to go to Rome to work DX.

N9LCD

 Smiley

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AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12981




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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2012, 08:40:11 AM »

Rome isn't DX when you are in Rome  Grin
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N9LCD
Member

Posts: 181




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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2012, 06:37:16 PM »

It is -- when you start calling "CQ DX, GERMANY".

The pile-up was intimidating for a first time op!

N9LCD

 Grin
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WB4LCN
Member

Posts: 134


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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2012, 08:27:35 PM »

BTW, I'm not sure that everyone's aware that there are already many ham shacks for rent out there now. So, we aren't discussing something that 'could be'. It already IS and has been available for a while.

dave Smiley
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First, make it work, then make it pretty.
Yaesu Rigs: Kenwood TS-480HX, FT-8900R, FTM-350AR (Bluetooth motorcycle mobile), VX-8DR, SB-102 boat anchor (built one as a kid)

Moderate Spock: "Live for a reasonable amount of time and scrape by."
K1ZJH
Member

Posts: 1141




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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2012, 10:43:22 AM »

I see no reason to get the FCC involved. Does a commercial vendor of amateur gear profit from the
sale of the equipment? How is that different from paying for the use of equipment?  I see most of
those arrangements as being either cost sharing, or rental agreements. There is no financial gain
from the actual on air communications.
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AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12981




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« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 06:47:23 AM »

This is just a thought to consider: Making a profit from selling amateur radio equipment - no problem. Making a profit from renting amateur radio equipment - no problem. Making a profit from renting remote access (i.e. air time) to your amateur station for which you are licensed and ultimately responsible may be a different matter ??
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