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Author Topic: Selling "airtime" on ham radio  (Read 109420 times)
W3WN
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Posts: 201




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« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 06:52:19 AM »

I'd be very curious to see the actual "advertisement(s)" that sparked this thread, to see how they are worded.  Unless I missed it, I don't see a link to them.

Without knowing exactly how the promotion of this station rental is being done...

In general, I don't see a problem with this under current FCC rules.  Reasoning:

(1)  Part 97 (in plain English) prohibits an individual being paid to operate an Amateur station, with a noted exception for specific bulletin & code practice stations.  That does not seem to be the case here.
(2)  Part 97 prohibits an Amateur station from selling advertising, transmitting music, or otherwise operating as a Commercial station.  That does not seem to be the case here.
(3)  Part 97 does NOT prohibit a station from being made available to another operator.  It does not address (for or against) the means.  Thus, it does not prohibit someone from renting their station (at cost or at a profit) to another amateur.  And THAT does appear to be the case here.

If it is not prohibited, the legal implication is that it is allowed.  It may be distasteful, and the requested rental fees might be high (for any of a multitude of reasons), but it does not appear to be legally prohibited under Part 97.

Now:  I am not a lawyer.  However, if this ever became a personal issue for me, and I needed to confirm with an attorney that my opinion appears to be correct, I'm fortunate enough that my attorney is a ham.  So if there is any doubt, I would politely suggest that the matter should be discussed with one's local Volunteer Counsel for a definitive answer.
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G3RZP
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Posts: 4489




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« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 09:26:18 AM »

Surely the station 'belongs' to the renter for the period of the renting - like a house. Further, the callsign isn't that of the station - does it even need one? - but that of the renter.

But it does make the business of being open to inspection more difficult unless the station owner is readily available, and that could then get the licencee renting the station into trouble.
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KE2TR
Member

Posts: 135




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« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 10:26:10 AM »

The ability to allow another ham who live's in a city or has XYL issue's as far as installing a real nice HF antenna system is for I am sure fantastic for may who are in this type of living arangment. For those ham's that have never experianced a pile-up on there call CQDX from a great station its intense, I know I had a very competetive station in the Burbs of Long Island but local town issue's lead to the station closing down. TO Op from a station that is able to win or place high scores in the CQWW contest is fantastic but many do not realize how much work and time plus money it takes for the up keep of the station, belive me it costs so the rental fee for whatever it is in most cases cover just the basic's and maybe just maybe that type of setup might make a profit but thats a long way off. This idea is a "Feild of Dream's" to ham's stuck in condo's or apartments in the big cities, I see no reason for this idea to be looked apon as not being legal. Sounds to me that the original post was created by a ham who has personal issue's with the parties that may be inveting there time and money to get this type of station off the ground, maybe cause he didnt think of it first, who know's but he is the only one that seems to be the BB here on this post.
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AA4PB
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Posts: 12793




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« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2012, 12:43:30 PM »

"Surely the station 'belongs' to the renter for the period of the renting - like a house. Further, the callsign isn't that of the station - does it even need one? - but that of the renter."

Quite true if the "renter" has physical posession of the station equipment. However, I don't think it would apply if the operator had no physical access to the station and was operating it remotely via the Internet and was just renting "air time" on it.

I've seen information from the FCC stating that there must be a designated control operator who shares legal responsibility for proper operation with the licensee of the station. The licensee can certainly designate the remote operator as the control operator during the time he is using it. That presumes that he knows that the control operator is properly licensed, and knows how to get in touch with him in the event of a problem. It probably requires more than letting someone put in their Visa card number and being charged for an hour of operation, with no other interaction or verification.

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N9LCD
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Posts: 169




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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2012, 05:03:37 PM »

Me thinks somebody is "jealous".

Any guesses who?

N9LCD
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KE2TR
Member

Posts: 135




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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2012, 06:58:30 AM »

I wonder how many station's are out there for "Remote Stations To Rent", I am thinking that this has been done a whole lot more than hams think. I know of intaller's who have built whole stations for hams here in the NE who are able to do there remote control of there stations while sitting in there condo's in a warm and comfy roon somewere else, thats been done allot but not everyone might have the investment to do soo, this would allow allot more ham's to be able to have a greater Ham Radio Experiance.
Yes N9LCD, I feel you hit the nail on the head, jealous hams have always wanted to take the other guy out. It reminds me of a local ham here on LI who is now a SK who had a fantastic station, it was Arnold W2HCW, his qth had a salt water shot from NW to SSE plus his antennas were 100ft above this salt water marsh to start with and all on 100ft plus Big Bertha rotating towers. He had a fantastic qth and I had the pleasure to op that station a few times threw the years, even having a station myself at the time with stacks on 10/15/20 and 3el on 40ty, his qth was worth an easy 6db over my qth 3 miles inland. I was never jealous of Arnold station, more so I respected the intesity of how well it got out. There were threw the years many local hams who were always gunnin for him but never toped his signal. Like in the Mel Brooks movie "Its Good To Be King" but the locals were always very jealous. I respect these guys who build a station and now are able with remote site hookups be able to bring this thrill of big time radio to the average ham who might not be able to even have any antennas at all. Maybe these hams who rent a station lets say for a week can have the big time radio experiance for themselves, I ask what is wrong with that.
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N1CX
Member

Posts: 121




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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2012, 07:46:36 AM »

Let us in on the secret.

Me thinks somebody is "jealous".

Any guesses who?

N9LCD
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WB4LCN
Member

Posts: 133


WWW

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« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2012, 01:09:44 PM »

I can see it now, Socialism seeping into Ham Radio...

It's not fair for you to have a better antenna, more powerful transmitter, a more sensitive receiver or a more comfortable ham shack chair than your fellow ham. With that reasoning,  we'll all be reduced to running CW QRP on a whip antenna.

dave Smiley
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First, make it work, then make it pretty.
Yaesu Rigs: Kenwood TS-480HX, FT-8900R, FTM-350AR (Bluetooth motorcycle mobile), VX-8DR, SB-102 boat anchor (built one as a kid)

Moderate Spock: "Live for a reasonable amount of time and scrape by."
AA4PB
Member

Posts: 12793




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« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2012, 05:40:52 AM »

I think it's been here for a while. Everyone gets a 599 report, even if you had to ask for a repeat of the call sign 15 times.  Grin

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K1XV
Member

Posts: 69




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« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2012, 01:42:00 PM »

I would see no problem, especially if it is organized as a situation where it is a joint use station, and several "joint owners" or authorized users have access to the use of the station.  The physical owner of the property where the station is located, and who maintains the station itself, can be paid to do so.

I think some of you take it a bit too far.  If there could be no profit motive  in amateur radio, everybody would have to run home brew equipment, and have to repair it themselves.   Or get unpaid help.  Being paid to enable others to engage in amateur radio is not engaging in amateur radio for a profit yourself.  What is prohibited is operating amateur radio equipment, specifically, transmitting, with a profit motive.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 01:43:56 PM by K1XV » Logged
N2OBM
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2012, 02:45:54 AM »

"membership is highly encouraged to help offset the cost of maintaining our repeaters"......'Regular Annual Membership is 20 US dollars'.......this sounds like pay for access, or solicitation of funds for services rendered. Doesn't it?

Just like 'private repeaters', 'Timeshare HF' seems to be a second verse here. The status quo has already been set.

In my opinion, the positive attributes of this remote HF system (including to overcome antenna restrictions) seem to outweigh the possibility or reality of abuse (profiteers; US or other).


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W2RWJ
Member

Posts: 179




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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2012, 04:17:30 PM »

I'd be very curious to see the actual "advertisement(s)" that sparked this thread, to see how they are worded.  Unless I missed it, I don't see a link to them.

Here's an example:  http://superbertha.com/main/page_amateur_radio_remote_control_rental.html
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W8JI
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Posts: 9304


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« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2012, 05:37:04 AM »

1.) Profit or loss has NOTHING to do with pecuniary interest or legal use.

2.) The pecuniary interest rules are entirely concerned with the communication's content , and nothing else.

3.) Informational and code practice transmissions, with restrictions defined in the rules, is allowed.

4.) Baxter uses his radio to jam people, and to promote business. It doesn't matter if it is profit or loss. It is just like Alpha advertising amplifiers in a broadcast, or advertising a rental in a broadcast, even if the sale was NOT profitable.

There isn't a thing wrong with renting a station, or renting access to a station. If there was something wrong, profit or loss would have nothing to do with it. It would be illegal to generally offer the rental over the air, but nothing is illegal about the act of rental.

There was a photographer who used a repeater near Commerce, GA to exchange information with his wife about school photo shoots. That was clearly illegal, even if he lost money.
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W8GP
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Posts: 199




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« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2012, 06:20:37 AM »

For rent: 
         Fully equipped luxury cabin miles from anywhere, includes FREE access to contest superstation....
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N1CX
Member

Posts: 121




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« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2012, 12:09:49 PM »

I offer a ts820s with a 50' high 40 meter inverted INVERTED V fed with 230' of rg58 at the bottom of the Blackstone Valley.

It's loud into Zero land barefoot.

$10 a day you pay to hook it to the computer.
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