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Author Topic: Sleeved Dipole / Pipe Dipole with 75 Ohm CATV 1/2" Hardline IDEAS  (Read 4800 times)
W4JST
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« on: July 27, 2012, 11:55:42 AM »

I have some 1/2" hardline I believe is called CATV And is 75 ohms. I have been told I can use this without worrying about it and the match will be around 1.5:1.

I have a spot in a tree at about 70 feet where I can pull an antenna up.

My thoughts have been to make a 1/2 wave dipole because it's simple and will also be resonant on 440 if I want to use crossband repeat. My main focus will be on 2 meter FM simplex and if there is a much better idea out there even if it is strictly a 2 meter antenna, I may consider it.

A 1/2" copper pipe coupling will fit tightly on the aluminum shield of the CATV. I can use a 3/4" to 1/2" reducer so I can slip 3/4" copper pipe over the coax (sleeve dipole / pipe dipole) for the shield side and then use a plastic 1/2" coupling to mount 1/2" copper pipe that I can solder to the copper clad CATV center conductor.

I've read some about the shield side of a sleeved dipole needing to be shorter? Do I not use exact lengths for the shield side and center conductor side of a sleeved dipole?

Thanks for any advice/ideas.
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 02:21:14 PM »

First, if the antenna is 50 Ohms and the cable is 75 Ohms, the SWR at the station end of the line can be anything between 1.0:1 and 2.25:1, depending on the electrical length of the cable, and also how much loss it has.

Next, a 1/2-wave vertical dipole for 2m is a 3/2-wave vertical dipole for 70cm and will have a much higher angle of radiation -- which of course can hurt or help (or maybe neither) depending what you're trying to work.  But usually, this isn't desirable.

But if neither of those are particularly important, I'd be mostly concerned about the mechanical support for the vertical dipole.  What you're describing, I think, is a "coaxial" vertical dipole where the lower element is a skirt with the transmission line run through it concentrically.  A commercial example of this is here: http://www.krecoantennas.com/hbcaxial.htm

If so, there are tricks to know about how to make this actually work; one is, the "skirt" (lower half of the antenna) needs to be much larger in diameter than the coax that runs up inside it, and they need to be electrically isolated from each other except at the feedpoint, which of course is the very top of the skirt.  The voltage (when transmitting) at the very "bottom" end of the skirt is high, and you need substantial isolation there to keep it away (for 360 degrees) from the outer conductor of the coaxial cable contained within.

For example, if you look at the link provided, the antenna is a 3/8" vertical radiator above a 2" diameter coaxial skirt.  If you use 1/2" coax up inside that, the physical separation I'm describing is 3/4" all the way around -- and it needs to be, to work properly.

Also, how will the connection from coax center conductor to radiator be supported?  Just soldering this and hoping for the best sounds like something that would break rather quickly, especially in the first wind.  Trees move a lot.
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WB6BYU
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 05:28:38 PM »

The other piece regarding both support and decoupling is that the antenna Steve linked
uses a 3/4" support pipe up the inside of the bottom element (the 2" pipe).  This provides
the mechanical support for the feedpoint, but also further decouples the element from the
coax because the coax runs inside it for some distance away from the antenna.  That
provides further shielding to reduce coupling.

If you want to try the coaxial dipole approach, I'd recommend looking for aluminum
stove pipe sections to use for the bottom element.  You can cut slits in one end
and tighten it around the coax shield with a hose clamp.  Add a couple of styrofoam
spacers to keep the coax centered in the middle of the lower element.

If the inner conductor of your coax is strong enough, then you can use it for the
top element and just cut the shield back to expose enough of it.  That may make
it difficult to seal the antenna against the weather, however.

For maximum decoupling a cone works better than a cylinder, so the spacing is wider
at the bottom.  Adding a second sleeve / cone below the first will also help.  At that
point you end up with something that looks more like this, but with a shorter top
section:

http://www.isopole.com/english/products-en/isopolevhf-en.htm


I've made several coaxial dipoles by folding the coax braid back over the the standing
part of the coax.  Yes, it radiates, but we had a heck of a time getting it tuned up
because of the common mode current on the feedline - the SWR changed depending
on how the coax was arranged on the table.  Because you have a relatively long length
of coax running vertically, any RF flowing on the outside of the coax can make a big
difference in your radiation pattern, generally moving the maximum lobe up above the
horizon.  That doesn't help you to work terrestrial stations.
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W4JST
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 06:47:03 PM »

My attraction to the sleeved dipole was that the 1/2" hardline I have will take a 1/2" copper pipe coupling and fit snug, so I was going to use a 1/2" to 3/4" adapter and use 3/4" copper pipe for the bottom part. Will this not provide enough space? Do I really need something like a 2" pipe at the bottom with that much space between the hardline and the bottom section?

I was wondering about the common mode currents. Will I need a choke balun? That would not be easy/possibly with the hardline so I may not go with the sleeved dipole approach.

With a sleeved dipole, are top and bottom elements equal in length or what is the rule for that?

Is there a better antenna recommendation than the sleeved dipole?
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WB6BYU
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 08:54:10 AM »

Quote from: W4JST
My attraction to the sleeved dipole was that the 1/2" hardline I have will take a 1/2" copper pipe coupling and fit snug, so I was going to use a 1/2" to 3/4" adapter and use 3/4" copper pipe for the bottom part.


If you do that, make sure you use some sort of anti-corrosion paste on the joint.
Copper / aluminum joints are particularly prone to corrosion due to dissimilar metals.
That's why using aluminum for the antenna might be a good idea.


Quote
Will this not provide enough space? Do I really need something like a 2" pipe at the bottom with that much space between the hardline and the bottom section?


You really don't need that much space, but the common mode current will
increase as you make the pipe smaller, but there isn't a set point where it stops "working".
(Well, except where it arcs over, since the end of the element is a high voltage
point and there there is a high potential gradient across the opening.)

I measured a commercial version that I have out in the barn - it uses a 3" diameter
lower element to pass the support pipe (with the coax inside), and the clearance
between the element and the pipe is 5/8".  So if the inside diameter of the sleeve
is 1" larger than the outside of the coax, that's probably a reasonable design goal.

One other factor is the thickness of the outer insulation on the coax:  this is not
designed for good RF performance, and the larger the percentage of the gap between
the shield and the sleeve that is filled with insulation, the higher the losses will
be in the insulation.  This is why it is good to use a spacer to keep the coax
centered in the sleeve rather than laying against one side.  (Pipe insulation or a
spiral of foam weatherstripping down the coax might be easy ways to do this.)
How much of a difference does this make?  I'd guess no more than 1dB when the
shield is right against the coax.  But it is another reason to provide some gap
between the sleeve and the coax if you can.


Quote
I was wondering about the common mode currents. Will I need a choke balun? That would not be easy/possibly with the hardline so I may not go with the sleeved dipole approach.


A choke balun formed by coiling the coax doesn't work well at VHF/UHF due to stray
capacitance.  Instead I'd suggest using snap-on ferrite beads around the coax, preferably
two sets spaced 1/4 apart for maximum decoupling.

While a choke will help, generally it is better to minimize common mode currents by design
where possible rather than relying on the choke to do all the work.



Quote
With a sleeved dipole, are top and bottom elements equal in length or what is the rule for that?

Generally the fatter element would be somewhat shorter for resonance.  But in this
case it doesn't matter that much.

I ran a model of a dipole using different diameter conductors and adjusted the length
for minimum SWR at 146 MHz on 75 ohm coax:

1/4"  38 1/8"
1/2"  37 5/8"
1"     37 1/4"
2"     37"

You could use these to calculate the length of each half of the antenna.  Or not -
a dipole will work when fed off-center, and it may be easier to make the sleeve
a convenient length then make all adjustments to the center conductor.  And the
exact tuning isn't too critical, as even the 1/4" dipole has a 1.5 : 1 SWR bandwidth
of 10 MHz, and the fatter ones will be even wider.


Quote
Is there a better antenna recommendation than the sleeved dipole?


Most end-fed vertical antennas are susceptible to common mode current.  This
includes the J-pole (some designs are especially bad in this regard) and the
ground plane.  But all of these still get used, even in commercial service (except
the J-pole), so it isn't that they won't work.

I happen to like the ground plane because they are easy to build.  I use a set of
dimensions published by Woody Smith W6BCX (inventor of the half square and
bobtail curtain) that are supposed to reduce common mode currents:  18" for
the radiator and 24" for the radials.  Whether or not this makes much difference
I can't say for sure, but the shorter radiator length allows me to use half a piece
of brazing rod.  I ran a model on the computer that included the feedline and
there was about a 1dB variation in gain as the coax length was varied, so it still
has some common mode current.  Adding some ferrite chokes would help further,
or a second set of radials 1/4 wave below the first (which is a common commercial
practice.)

But you can probably make some small variations to your design that will reduce
the common mode currents to a similar extent.  For example, if you use the 3/4"
pipe as you were planning for the lower element, but make it no more than 9" to
12" long and then splay it out somehow to shape it like radials the rest of the
length so it is spaced further from the coax at the open end.  This might be done
either by splitting the pipe and bending the pieces outwards, or by soldering wire
radials to the end of the pipe.  Adding a second set of radials below it would
also help decouple the feedline - because the outer conductor is aluminum, I'd
recommend using aluminum strips or wires held in place with a hose clamp.  With
the increased spacing at the bottom of the sleeve, just adding some ferrites
may be sufficient.

While it is good to know the design considerations, that shouldn't prevent you
from experimenting with simpler versions.  If you are hoisting the antenna up on
a rope halyard, put up an initial version and find a weak repeater to use as a
signal strength reference.  Then take it down, add some ferrite beads, and see
if that makes a difference.  Common mode current will depend on the length
of the feedline and how it is placed relative to the ground and the antenna, so
it tends to make performance less predictable.  If you have to climb the tree
and mount the antenna permanently, I'd worry a lot more about getting it
right the first time.
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W4JST
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 07:21:22 PM »

Thanks for the very helpful post.

I was thinking of using copper because a standard 1/2" copper pipe coupling will fit the other shield of the hardline tightly. Maybe there's similar pipe couplings for aluminum pipe somewhere? Would there be more loss using aluminum wire or strips and a hose clamp?

Where is the best place to get the ferrite beads? I guess just a size that will snap over the hardline? I want these as close to the feedpoint as possible?

I am not sure how to add the second set of radials you refer to.

The main thing I want is the best performance possible on 2 meter simplex. If it's usable on 440 for crossband repeat, that would be a benefit.
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 09:04:25 AM »

How will the antenna be mechanically supported?

I'd think that's by far the most important issue.
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KC9WIP
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 03:45:54 PM »

I built this (http://www.hamuniverse.com/w7lpn2440sleevedipole.html) over the weekend and it seems to perform quite well on 2 meters. Don't have a 440 capable radio...yet. Running 75 ohm to it as well and was a remnant of a satellite TV installation. Low loss at v/uhf. Had to substitute some of the construction materials, but I'm using 1/2" copper water pipe housed in a 1" PVC waterline. I put the ugly balun on a four inch pvc pipe as not wrap it too tightly. Now my HW-2036 is off frequency about 5 kHz or so and so I don't know how far I can actually throw a signal yet. I can easily hit the repeaters 25 miles away with it sitting just 12' off the ground. I'd like to see the antenna higher and the radio aligned better...we'll see.

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WB2WIK
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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 03:13:37 PM »

I put the ugly balun on a four inch pvc pipe as not wrap it too tightly.


A 2m "ugly" balun (current choke) on 4" diameter is just a bunch of coax on two meters; it's doing absolutely nothing.  A 2m balun made that way has to be very small in diameter, which dictates using thin coax, or it's not going to work.

The kind of "balun" barely works at 2m anyway, but to make it 4" diameter guarantees it won't work. Wink
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KC9WIP
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 04:12:51 PM »

Thanks. I did not know that. I'll make that change. I had used a bifilar choke on my dipole and that made all the difference in the world...I have little to no experience with VHF.
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W4JST
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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 06:54:51 PM »

What antenna is recommended? I want something primarily for long distance 2 meter simplex work, 440 is a benefit but not required.

With your antenna recommendation, is any type of choke recommended, if so what kind?

Thanks everyone.
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KC9WIP
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 09:01:23 PM »

Apparently I'm not using a choke...one is recommended for this antenna to prevent RF coming back down the shield and I'll be altering what I'm using. But what to do is investigate what to really use for VHF... Any suggestions from the Elmers?...  I've not noticed anything out of the ordinary...now I'm new to VHF, but when I key the mic, I get a pretty even swing on the Field Strength meter whether sitting on the radio or sitting in the far corner of the shack. I get reports of being crystal clear and full quieting. Not bad for a 35 year old radio on a home made vertical. Now the SWR is not as flat as I hoped it would be. 3:1 at 144MHz, 1:1 at 146MHz and 2.5:1 at 148MHz. Will a common mode choke help flatten this out? I don't know. Part of the fun, admitting you don't know and seek to increase your knowledge.

What antenna is recommended? I want something primarily for long distance 2 meter simplex work, 440 is a benefit but not required.

With your antenna recommendation, is any type of choke recommended, if so what kind?

Thanks everyone.
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 09:29:22 AM »

What antenna is recommended? I want something primarily for long distance 2 meter simplex work, 440 is a benefit but not required.

With your antenna recommendation, is any type of choke recommended, if so what kind?

Thanks everyone.

I asked how you will support the antenna in the tree, twice, but you never replied to that so it would be impossible to recommend anything -- this information is more important than anything else.
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W4JST
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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »

I have a rope over a tree limb. Depends on the antenna how I will attach the rope to it. I am not concerned about it.

Recommend the best 2 meter omnidirectional antenna, I will figure out how to attach an anchor from there.

Thanks.
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 09:20:30 AM »

I have a rope over a tree limb. Depends on the antenna how I will attach the rope to it. I am not concerned about it.

Recommend the best 2 meter omnidirectional antenna, I will figure out how to attach an anchor from there.

Thanks.

The reason I asked is because most commercially built vertical antennas for VHF weren't designed to be supported that way and the mechanical stress of "hanging" them could easily cause them to fail.  They're all designed to be supported from below, by clamping to a mast or tower leg.

IMO, the "best" yet still pretty affordable 2m omni antenna available is the Hustler G7-144.  It requires a mast mount and would not survive being "hung up" with a rope; however it is a really good antenna, with more gain than any other "amateur" 2m omni made by anybody; it will handle power (600W), and is an excellent, proven design.  It does have four radials (about 19" long each) which extend from its base, out to the sides; so those must be dealt with.

The only "better" (higher performance) 2m omnis I can think of are very expensive, like Stationmasters and DB-224s, etc.  Those are in the several hundred dollar to thousand dollar price class; they're also heavier!

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