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Author Topic: Remember This?  (Read 4502 times)
STAYVERTICAL
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2012, 04:39:50 AM »

Hi Bob,

When we started to drive a car, we consciously made every movement, frequently taking focus off some other part of driving.
Eventually, driving becomes an unconscious act, with smooth and safe operation coming with no conscious effort.

As you say, doing multiple things while learning morse, can indeed interact and detract from each other.
These days, I head copy almost 100 percent in ham use - why waste paper and ink.
But many children are taught touch typing in school these days, since using a computer keyboard is almost mandatory in the modern workplace.
My learning of touch typing was useful at sea of course, but in my later job as computer programmer it was essential.

I can type at 70WPM or more, but could not write anywhere near that speed.
Personally, I have never noticed any difference in my receiving speed with writing or typing.
But writing above 30WPM is very hard work, especially for a long qso, so I would never do this anyway.
I would be under much more pressure trying to write at 45WPM than typing at this speed.
Of course for ham use, the ultimate goal is to head read it all.
Then you are not limited by mechanical transcription at all, and the whole process is like a voice qso.

Head copy at the lower speeds can be more difficult than higher rates.
In my case it is harder to head read slow morse because you are working with letters not words, so I have to remember them all.
My technique when head reading slow morse (5 - 10wpm) is to visualise it on a mental blackboard being slowly assembled.

If you subscribe to the NeuroLinguistic view of the world, then a problem arises with people who are not primarily visual, but tactile or audio instead.
When I was a teacher (for adults), I found it necessary to present concepts in different ways to get the entire class comprehending the idea.

I would guess morse is the same, there is no one method which will work for everyone - since we are all different in subtle ways.
This is the main danger in learning morse by one system or another - recipe book learning will always leave some behind.

73 - Rob
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 05:07:02 AM by STAYVERTICAL » Logged
AB9NZ
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Posts: 177




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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 05:43:53 AM »

Lots of really good thoughts here. As Rick and Bob said, Koch probably isn't the best way to learn to type. You bet Rob, people learn in different ways. Bob said
Quote
Did you try Koch with wide character space 20/5, after success narrow it to 20/10 and after success 20/15? Is possible per lesson, but also for the whole course by repeating the course 3 times with increased speed.
My understanding is that this isn't Koch at all, but rather Farnsworth timing. The promise of Koch is immediate recognition at full speed. It was too hard for me, and many others too I suspect. It kind of makes you wonder how much faith the programmers really have in Koch, when Farnsworth is an option on most Koch Morse education programs Smiley.  73 de Tom ab9nz
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M0LEP
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Posts: 210




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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 05:51:22 AM »

Right, use hunt and peg method, (two  fingers) when you can't touch-type.

...or write it longhand, which may well be quicker and more fluent than hunt-and-peck typing.

Did you change method? What is the method right now?

Listen to pre-prepared morse on CD, listen to morse on the bands, and practice sending to the computer.

Did you try Koch with wide character space 20/5, after success narrow it to 20/10 and after success 20/15? Is possible per lesson, but also for the whole course by repeating the course 3 times with increased speed.

Yes. That's the method I beat my head against for far too long. It may work for some folk, but not for me. In the gaps I always break the sound down into component dahs and dits. Better, but still not particularly successful, was to work up 15/12, 15/15, 18/15, and so on.

However, the fundamental flaw in the Koch scheme for me was the "add another character and repeat" part. The first two characters? Learned in a day. The third? Another day. The forth? Two or three days. The fifth? A week or more... You can see where this goes. Unfortunately it took me several months to realise where it went, or rather, where it didn't go.

In retrospect, the trick might have been to use that thing about the first pair being easiest. The sequence of pairs would have to be carefully chosen, but the aim would be to build a tree of characters rather than a line of them. Learn two. Then learn a different two. Then put those together as a four. Then repeat the process for another four. Then put the two fours together as a set of eight. Or maybe work with groups of three (all new at once), or some of two and some of three, but always trying to end up having given every character equal exposure.
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 07:16:30 AM »



...or write it longhand, which may well be quicker and more fluent than hunt-and-peck typing.

Yes, indeed, that is better in my opinion, but in order to get a score you have to type, and you can type-over your writing. Or you can touch type  one exercise, in order to get your score. So when you are able to touch type you can learn copy by touch type and by writing simultaneous. When you don't and try copy by touch-typing afterwards, you fall back in speed.

Just as Stayvertical says, it has no sense to hunt and peg a keyboard in order to learn hard-copy Morse, due to the inherent speed limit and effort required. It is just done for obtaining the score.


Did you change method? What is the method right now?
Quote
Listen to pre-prepared morse on CD, listen to morse on the bands, and practice sending to the computer.

No experience with eish5? Generations learned the code that way, but afterwards they complained about counting dits and ceilings. Everybody, educated with all methods, complain about the difference between d and b , s and h and 5, when it is useless random text  or call signs.  

Head copy plain text solves that problem in general (not always). Contests have hardly to do anything with Morse code. More with cheating, lying, illegal QRO, and social tricks. I understand the guys and wish them gd luck; when you fail in arriving at a social level you think personally that is your home-level (emphasis on personally, because at least I think different), due to low brain level, school dropout, or wrong character, mostly all three of them together, you must have SOME way to show that you can gain your self-esteem.
So buy an oversized boat (expensive), or start contesting (cheaper).

Quote
Did you try Koch with wide character space 20/5, after success narrow it to 20/10 and after success 20/15? Is possible per lesson, but also for the whole course by repeating the course 3 times with increased speed.

Yes. That's the method I beat my head against for far too long. It may work for some folk, but not for me. In the gaps I always break the sound down into component dahs and dits. Better, but still not particularly successful, was to work up 15/12, 15/15, 18/15, and so on.

However, the fundamental flaw in the Koch scheme for me was the "add another character and repeat" part. The first two characters? Learned in a day. The third? Another day. The forth? Two or three days. The fifth? A week or more... You can see where this goes. Unfortunately it took me several months to realise where it went, or rather, where it didn't go.


Yes, but you were adviced to bundle characters, so learn 5 characters, learn a complete different set of 5. Add them. But you refused, because you wanted score-graphs.

Score graphs are pretty useless. In words exercises, the max reachable score is dependent on word length and that has a tolerance of plus and minus 30 percent in a loaded exercise and above that is language dependent. Especially German uses often long words
and when they remove the umlauts and change them to an additional inserted e, the difference in character count is often enormous.

Quote
In retrospect, the trick might have been to use that thing about the first pair being easiest. The sequence of pairs would have to be carefully chosen, but the aim would be to build a tree of characters rather than a line of them. Learn two. Then learn a different two. Then put those together as a four. Then repeat the process for another four. Then put the two fours together as a set of eight. Or maybe work with groups of three (all new at once), or some of two and some of three, but always trying to end up having given every character equal exposure.

You will find the same in head copy, I saw that reported at LCWO before.
Exercising a a certain fixed speed, no repeats, yield 2/3 of the generated words OK on the avarage over a large number of exercises.
Then an increase of 12% in speed. No change, same average of immediately copied words. (score higher of course due to increased speed)

The solution of course is to kick the easy words out and exercise with the rest.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 07:22:13 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
M0LEP
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Posts: 210




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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2012, 10:28:38 AM »

No experience with eish5? Generations learned the code that way, but afterwards they complained about counting dits and ceilings.

I've a feeling EISH5, TMO0 and so on make bad groups. It would be better to mix characters up rather more, and maybe put more longer characters earlier, and shorter ones later in the progression. I also think that five at a time is probably too many. It'd take someone with a lot more experience than me to work out a good set of character groups.

Yes, but you were adviced to bundle characters, so learn 5 characters, learn a complete different set of 5. Add them. But you refused, because you wanted score-graphs.

Indeed. What I wanted was an indication of progress, and the graphs seemed to offer that.  With a good lesson sequence they might even have done so. However, with the Koch sequence, what they actually provided was an indication of lack of progress. It just took me a long time to realise that. Mind, without the graphs I might not have figured even that...
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W5LZ
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Posts: 477




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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 05:22:28 AM »

I never had that particular record, but do remember them.  Didn't learn code that way, I used an Instructograph, paper tape, remember those @#$ things?  I wish I could 'touch type'!  Oh well, lot's of things I 'wish' for...
 - Paul
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KG4NEL
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Posts: 373




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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2012, 05:55:41 AM »

Lots of really good thoughts here. As Rick and Bob said, Koch probably isn't the best way to learn to type. You bet Rob, people learn in different ways. Bob said
Quote
Did you try Koch with wide character space 20/5, after success narrow it to 20/10 and after success 20/15? Is possible per lesson, but also for the whole course by repeating the course 3 times with increased speed.
My understanding is that this isn't Koch at all, but rather Farnsworth timing. The promise of Koch is immediate recognition at full speed. It was too hard for me, and many others too I suspect. It kind of makes you wonder how much faith the programmers really have in Koch, when Farnsworth is an option on most Koch Morse education programs Smiley.  73 de Tom ab9nz

I've had pretty good luck combining FW spacing and the Koch add-a-character approach, with 10wpm set as the absolute slowest speed I hear.
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