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Author Topic: What can be done with operators who splatter??  (Read 15211 times)
VE4TTH
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Posts: 12




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« on: August 21, 2012, 06:24:03 AM »

This is getting to be very very annoying. I see this a mostly on 20 meters, where an operator is 5Khz to 5.5Khz wide, and when I tune them in they are only S7 or S8. I've tried to be very polite and let them know that they are that wide, but they just don't seem to care. Even when they dismiss me in a rude manner I've remained courteous and went back to my conversation. My filters can cancel them out, but I shouldn't have to use filtering for someone that far away from the frequency I'm using.

Am I just being picky?

So, what to do next?   Huh
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WX7G
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Posts: 6131




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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2012, 04:35:57 PM »

There is the Wouff Hong and the Rettysnitch. Take your pic.
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LA9XSA
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Posts: 376




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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 05:15:55 AM »

Since there's no expectation of privacy in an amateur radio conversation, just record your conversation and write a log with dates and times. If the splatterers refuse to listen to you, or dismiss you rudely, you can report them to the FCC. The FCC like to think of radio amateurs as being "self-policing", so they usually don't spend resources on enforcement against amateurs unless they cause interference to other radio services, but in some cases the FCC become involved. From what I hear the FCC are very friendly and helpful if you contact them, and I'm sure they'll be grateful for audio recording, signed and dated logs (contemporary notes have evidentiary value) and perhaps direction finding information too. Then you'll just have to hope that the FCC enforcement agents have time to follow up on the information.
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AA4HA
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Posts: 1482




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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 03:29:18 PM »

It may be without teeth but you can contact the ARRL OOC (Official Observer Coordinator) and see if they can get an OO to monitor the station and send them a friendly notice that they appear to be having operating difficulties.

I would also suggest that you make a video of a spectrum analyzer output while listening to the audio and send that to the OOC office. This amateur may only think someone is nagging them because of a channel spacing issue. If they see just how bad they are splattering maybe they would be willing to accept some help in optimizing their system.

I do that sort of consulting work on a professional basis with commercial systems and it is always easier if something can be resolved directly rather than getting the FCC involved. I have gone that route before with someone who was running a 100 watt amplifier on a chunk of ISM spectrum and obliterating the use for other folks.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 03:45:00 PM by AA4HA » Logged

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
NO2A
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Posts: 800




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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 08:18:28 AM »

If you can keep your compression level to no more than 5db you`ll find you can have great audio without bothering the nearby frequencies.
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W8JX
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Posts: 6047




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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 11:56:32 AM »

If you can keep your compression level to no more than 5db you`ll find you can have great audio without bothering the nearby frequencies.

It is not compression itself that causes splatter but usually the result of a over driven or mis-tuned amp.
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W8JI
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 12:00:09 PM »

This is getting to be very very annoying. I see this a mostly on 20 meters, where an operator is 5Khz to 5.5Khz wide, and when I tune them in they are only S7 or S8. I've tried to be very polite and let them know that they are that wide, but they just don't seem to care. Even when they dismiss me in a rude manner I've remained courteous and went back to my conversation. My filters can cancel them out, but I shouldn't have to use filtering for someone that far away from the frequency I'm using.

Am I just being picky?

So, what to do next?   Huh


What you see does not surprise me at all. I did a survey of 20 meters a while ago, and a considerable percentage of signals on the band were far too wide. Ten meters, when it opens, is even worse.

I'm not sure what people are running or doing, because they generally don't take well to being asked about their rigs, but they are doing something. It would be interesting to learn exactly what they are doing.

Many radios are not particularly good, but are passable in most cases. I saw quite a few signals that were less than -20 dB down on the adjacent SSB channel width up or down.

One problem you will run into is if you mention it to someone, their friends will often tell them how good they sound. :-)

73 Tom
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WB6DGN
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Posts: 619




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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 10:50:37 PM »

My two cents; ignore it and move on.  I see similar things on VHF/UHF, off frequency by 1 to 3 kc, over or under, usually grossly under, modulation and other things too numerous to mention.  I NEVER say anything and if I'm having a lousy day, I just move to another frequency and ignore it.  For one thing, the "offender" has no idea what you're listening to him with so your report is of questionable credibility.  Then, if he gets supporting signal reports from others, YOU'RE the bad guy.  Just not worth it to me.  I'm not working "dispatch" so I don't HAVE TO listen to it.  Why get all in an uproar when all I have to do is leave?
Tom
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KASSY
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Posts: 166




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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 12:07:05 PM »

If your filters can take care of it, then they're not splattering.  Try turning off both your RX preamp and your noise blanker.  Both items can make your receiver generate the splatter that you think the station has on it.

I hear very few stations "splattering" beyond just the normal width of SSB signals (which, BTW, is much wider than the 5.5kHz you mention).  Modern transmitters are only about 30dB down at typ 6kHz both sides, and that would make an S7 signal about S2, still very audible.

- k
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W1AEX
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Posts: 69


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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 10:47:16 AM »

I'm not sure that there's much you can do about this other than to bring it to someone's attention when you run across it. As I'm sure you have seen, some operators appreciate a report that things don't seem right but others get very defensive and combative. When someone gets upset by a negative report, don't lose any sleep over it, just sign with them and move on. I certainly don't have any problem if someone wants to run a signal wider than 3.0 kc if it's clean. A clean 3.8 kc signal is not anywhere near as wide as a 3.0 kc signal that is bleeding heavily into the opposite sideband. Take a look at this signal from an ICOM 7600 which has "more than 55 dB unwanted sideband suppression" according to the specs in the manual:

http://www.w1aex.com/archive/bandwidth.jpg

The signal in the picture was approaching 3.0 kc wide in the desired sideband with some crud extending out another 3 kc, and the opposite sideband is also extending out close to 3 kc in the other direction. This signal was a bit over S-9 in strength and the opposite sideband suppression was obviously not greater than -55 dB. This particular operator was heavily pushing the bottom end in an attempt to attain the big-big sound of an FM broadcaster, which of course is an exercise in futility with a DSP designed to pass only 2.9 kc. By the way, he was receiving glowing reports from the other 5 stations in the QSO. To be honest, he wasn't harming anyone else by what he was doing as the band was nearly empty, however, if I was having a QSO 2 kc up the band and that signal suddenly showed up, I would definitely say something.

At any rate, I believe we are obligated to give honest reports when they are solicited, and to give courteous unsolicited reports when splatter from a poorly run station affects us. Just check to make sure your noise blanker isn't on before you decide to give an unflattering splatter report.

73,

Rob W1AEX    

 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 10:51:24 AM by W1AEX » Logged

WB2WIK
Member

Posts: 20611




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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 05:44:46 PM »

I think there are many "overly wide" signals on the bands.

We need to just kill them, as a lesson to future generations. Tongue

Actually, when faced with this, I go back to CW where key clicks are the only real issue and they're not so prevalent.

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K0CBA
Member

Posts: 302




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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 08:26:42 AM »

Just a thought before you get the "torch and pitchfork" gang from the village together check and see if your noise blanker is 'on'.

That can make the cleanest of signals sound pretty nasty especially if it's pretty strong.
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WB6DGN
Member

Posts: 619




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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 01:27:06 AM »

Quote
What can be done with operators who splatter??

Awww!  Steve, you stole my thunder!  I was gonna say, "Take 'em out and shoot 'em at daybreak???"
Tom
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ZENKI
Member

Posts: 956




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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 03:02:09 AM »

Where do we start?

The operators will always try and blame your receiver and then try and tell you that you have your noise blanker on.  This tired old excuse does not cut it these days. Most operators are aware that you cant use a noise when the band is full of strong signals. These days most receivers have sufficient dynamic where it really is impossible to  crunch the front end. This is not the year 1970!

IMD that is 20 db  down is pretty common these days.   We can blame the manufacturers for these badly designed transmitters. The bands are so bad these days with IMD that its routine to hear splatter from DX stations. Now imagine
how bad the IMD suppression really is if  the IMD  is actually loud enough to travel across the world! You  want to experience this try listening to the many web SDR receivers in places like Europe you will be really shocked how bad the splatter is these days The SDR waterfall is worth 100000 words!  Its not only from Europe its from right across the world.

The chief reasons for being in the splatter club are these:

ESSB, 99.99% of people using outboard audio processing gear with excessive bandwidth cause a lot splatter. ESSB is a menace practice on the ham bands.

The use of CB amplifiers especially on 10 meters by ex good buddies. These stations stand out like a sore thumb and routinely take out 15 to 20khz of the band.

Russian Tetrode amplifiers. These amplifiers are just about the worst amplifier a beginner can use in ham radio. For a start,  they are  very sensitive to over driving and things like ALC overshoot. You
hear this kind tetrode  over shoot splatter on just about every ham that uses these russian tube amplifiers. Its a combination of the poor tube IMD and the transceiver ALC/power spike issue. Most of these amplifiers
could be modified to high drive rather than low drive which could help the splatter problem. For this reason  I would never recommend a Russian Tetrode amplifier to anyone who wants  a clean signal with any modern ham transceiver
which most has poor IMD performance and ALC overshoot problems.

Then we have the LIDS, these guys are just bad operators who are smart asses and dont give a damn about anybody. They know what they are doing and splatter deliberately by cranking all the knobs to the right.

We then must move onto the hams with technical deficit disorder. These are the ones who typically work DX from a mobile or use a poor a antenna. You will hear a DX station say  that their  signal is weak can and can you repeat your callsign. The said idiot operator will say hold on I will turn my  MIC gain up a bit. They do this and you see 15khz of the band getting chewed up. This idiotic practice is  routine with poor antenna DX'ers and mobile operators. I wonder how cranking up the audio gain on ham transceiver actually increases output power? Maybe someone can sit down and explain why its wrong doing this to these ignorant  hams.

Its really time for the occupied bandwidth regulations throughout the world for ham transceivers. This will be a good first step in the right direction. Like everything else in life you cant make rules for idiots.
Ham radio used to be great when it was a true technical community where people took technical criticism on the chin. These days telling someone that they splattering is like calling their wives ugly. Its even worst when these
technical ignorant hams think that spending 10 thousand dollars on radio guarantees them a splatter free signal. I have a few operators tell me this I have this expensive brand X radio, its does not splatter. How can you combat
such a pathetic and technically ignorant operators?

If someone tells you that you are splattering all that you should request, is at what signal strength you are on their receiver and what their receiver brand is. You really should just terminate your QSO and tell the operator you will investigate the   problem . You should then connect the dummy load and second receiver and check you signal, its as simple as that. Launching a personal attack on the  ham  that reported that you are splattering is not necessary.
The louder the station protests and carries on about your bad receiver the more technical incompetent that station is, its really that simple. It takes all but 1 minute to check if you are really splattering. If you are using ESSB or a CB amplifier you probably are splattering! The number 1 rule is never ask your friend if you are splattering. This kind of sycophantic  ham buddy  backing his favorite on air ham buddy to make him look good is routine. You find the same ham buddies telling their friends that their audio is excellent even when they sound totally crap. Thats human behavior for you!

Its just such a pleasure listening to the many clean signals on the air. You hear these station running a humble pair of 3-500s and some good radio like a TS830S, TS930S  or TS940s or any other radio with good IMD.
Now it seems that every new radio and amplifier produces excessive crud. The fault really lies with the manufacturers that are producing junk most of the time. There are many other combinations of radio and amplifiers that produce
splatter free signals, they just getting harder and harder to find or buy!




This is getting to be very very annoying. I see this a mostly on 20 meters, where an operator is 5Khz to 5.5Khz wide, and when I tune them in they are only S7 or S8. I've tried to be very polite and let them know that they are that wide, but they just don't seem to care. Even when they dismiss me in a rude manner I've remained courteous and went back to my conversation. My filters can cancel them out, but I shouldn't have to use filtering for someone that far away from the frequency I'm using.

Am I just being picky?

So, what to do next?   Huh


What you see does not surprise me at all. I did a survey of 20 meters a while ago, and a considerable percentage of signals on the band were far too wide. Ten meters, when it opens, is even worse.

I'm not sure what people are running or doing, because they generally don't take well to being asked about their rigs, but they are doing something. It would be interesting to learn exactly what they are doing.

Many radios are not particularly good, but are passable in most cases. I saw quite a few signals that were less than -20 dB down on the adjacent SSB channel width up or down.

One problem you will run into is if you mention it to someone, their friends will often tell them how good they sound. :-)

73 Tom
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WX7G
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Posts: 6131




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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 02:56:13 PM »

This is getting to be very very annoying. I see this a mostly on 20 meters, where an operator is 5Khz to 5.5Khz wide, and when I tune them in they are only S7 or S8. I've tried to be very polite and let them know that they are that wide, but they just don't seem to care. Even when they dismiss me in a rude manner I've remained courteous and went back to my conversation. My filters can cancel them out, but I shouldn't have to use filtering for someone that far away from the frequency I'm using.

Am I just being picky?

So, what to do next?   Huh


You say "my filters can cancel them out..." This says the issue is your receiver and not their transmitter. Filters don't filter real signals that are in the filter bandpass.
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