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Author Topic: KX3 SDR  (Read 53505 times)
KE5JPP
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 09:26:50 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3TsFBKhzxE&sns=em

I am finding that the default settings are the default settings for a reason.  This is with default settings and that horrible hand mic.  Smiley  Mic  gain at 23.  Using little cheap iHome speakers for the sound.  The video was recorded on a cell phone.

Best way to know if the audio in a rig is decent is to just try one yourself.  Find a ham in a local club that has one that will invite you over to play, field day, ect.  Hands on and ears on, there is no substitue to find out if the issues being reported are real or hype.

I noticed some audio distortion/vibration towards the end of the video.  It sounded a bit like a rattle at 1:50 or so.  It has hard to tell if it was from your external speakers or from the cell phone recording.  I listened to it on my iPad as well as my home computer to make sure it was not my speakers.  Otherwise, it sounded pretty good.

Gene
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2012, 09:32:08 AM »

Here's another example with an external speaker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN-3zf_Xj3Q&feature=related  Rattle/distortion starts about 0:40.  Maybe the internal audio amp just cannot drive external speakers at high volume with distortion?  I guess an external amplified speaker would help this though.

Gene
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NI0Z
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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2012, 09:37:25 AM »

AGC was too high, checkout the guys next video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3urJBvTIMs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2012, 09:44:11 AM »


That seems to have improved his distortion problem.

What about in your video?  What is the cause of the rattle starting at 1:50?

Gene
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NI0Z
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2012, 09:51:50 AM »

I don't hear a rattle, but keep in mind, this is recorded using the cell phone mic so it could be any number of things in the room that your hearing.  Let's see if anyone else hears it and can elaborate more.  I even used headphones to listen to it.  Maybe I just don't have as refined hearing as others do here.

Of course, if I sold it and bought a real radio I wouldn't have the rattle right?  Smiley. Let me see, Ahh yes, of course, the Answer is obvious, a TS 590 right?  Why have an SDR at all in the SDR forum, we can rename the Fourm to TS 590 Forum.  Wink

I am joking of course!  Don't be upset now, you have to admit its funny! Smiley

73
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KE5JPP
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2012, 10:04:43 AM »

I don't hear a rattle, but keep in mind, this is recorded using the cell phone mic so it could be any number of things in the room that your hearing.  Let's see if anyone else hears it and can elaborate more.  I even used headphones to listen to it.  Maybe I just don't have as refined hearing as others do here.

Of course, if I sold it and bought a real radio I wouldn't have the rattle right?  Smiley. Let me see, Ahh yes, of course, the Answer is obvious, a TS 590 right?  Why have an SDR at all in the SDR forum, we can rename the Fourm to TS 590 Forum.  Wink

I am joking of course!  Don't be upset now, you have to admit its funny! Smiley

73

I think you are being a little passive aggressive here?  I don't care whether you keep or sell your KX3 and I am certainly not suggesting that you buy a TS-590s - joking or not.  I am honestly asking these questions because I am considering purchasing a KX3, probably by next Spring. 

I don't think it is your cell phone introducing the rattle in the video because when you are speaking, the audio of the recording is very clear.  The rattling or popping starts about 1:50 in the video and it can be heard clearly.   I am not sure if it is coming from your KX3 or from maybe a resonance in your external speakers.   Can you try connecting some other speakers and making another video when you get a chance?

Gene
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NI0Z
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2012, 12:18:53 PM »

I'll listen again at home tonight and yes, I do plan on making a few more videos showing the Panadaptor, front end audio and CommCat integration.  Videos are not a strength of mine, so be forewarned.

Seriously though, this is not my end-state game with this radio, I have something that I hope will be awesome up my sleeve. The way I am operating right now is not ideal!  There is a plan though that I am working my way towards making this all work like I want.  Lol and by then a better radio will come out and that will be that! Smiley. I am not sure where I am at with my Flex these days, it's not being used a lot right now because of the fun I am having with the little radio.

Here is the real scoop on the KX3 in my humble newbie opinion.

Yes, I can overdrive the external speakers very easily, to me that's a setting issue though and I can get what I want in the way of audio.  How easy is it, just start cranking the knobs clockwise.

Honestly, I think a lot of all this is going to be up to the end user and how they set things up and how much effort they put into getting it the way that want.  IE, buyer beware, this is not a fool proof radio.  

I use a mixture of getting others feed back and recording my own transmissions while making changes and then play it back to hear if its what I want.  And please note that what I want may not be what others want.

Radio is still really beta, there are still features not implemented yet and little bugs. Apparently if you build one of these radios yourself, you need to know how to calibrate it and have the right equipment to do it.  Its not about putting the radio together, can can happen in as little  a few hours.  I see many kit builders experiencing issues that those of us who bought the readymade radio don't.  

Elecraft is listening to user feedback and implementing lots of nice little changes.  Yes, they actually make them, hand the requesting user a alpha revision in the code and let them test and provide feedback before they add it to the main code base.  Actually quite impressive but no, not unique to them.  It's nice to know that there is more to come.  Honestly, a lot of this stuff seems like advanced feature requests.  The likes of me may never touch or use many of these features.

There is a real speaker issue.  Not everyone has it and it's somewhat subjective.  What do I mean?  Well I am sure the little speaker will sound awful if you have your AGC set certain ways verses others.  Is that a technical radio problem, or a user problem?  Honestly don't know and don't care because I am not having those issues the way I am using it.  It looks like some of the speakers though may have physical defects with the cone causing the issue.  If that's not it then  this may be a real tuff one to solve because it could be also come down to being an acoustical phenomena with the speaker they chose, the audio dynamics and the case itself.

The radio can get rather hot running 10-12 watts with a PS hooked up.  There is temperature control that will drop the power if it gets too hot.. But for me it seems too hot during long QSOs so I feel like if one were going to dedicate this to is minority use case of a desktop base station then fans will be in order in my humble opinion.  Maybe heat syncs.  I am not an EE so honestly, I can't say.  Also can't say if it's a real issue other than I do know enough that temperature variances can skew component performance.

Because the radio is so small you can literally end up with a pile of spaghetti cables laying around your radio.  Just one more thing to make sure you understand if your wanting to use it like I do.  A box with fans is probably what I will build for it.  That will hide the cables away and act like a docking bay of sorts as well as keep it cooler.

NAP3 is far from ideal for use as a real SDR software package if one wants to use the KX3 bypassing some of the radios architecture.  Hybrid operation is fine where one uses the knobs and some of the radios features.  I still have a nasty Xmit issue in my setup that prohibits me from having the audio on in NAP3 while transmitting.  This does not happen if I cat control direct from NAP3 to the radio, but does happen through Ham Radio Deluxe.  Why do I use HRD? It allows me to use both CommCat and NAP3 together.   There is LPB2 that I will try to see if I can bypass HRD.  Remember, NAP3 is a Panadaptor package.

The Panadaptor display is amazingly crisp in my opinion.  Very very nice!  There is the typical dip you see in the center.  I believe I read or saw somewhere this is common with sound based SDRs.  Lots of people are struggling to get it setup, it's easy to have a ground loop issue with this radio.  In my case an Isolator was an absolute necessity.  While I say tricky I will also say than if you know all the right things going into it, it's actually really simple.  I think the isolator is the real secret to success.  You may need more than one if you run digital modes using the phones jack audio to the PC.


I can't help but think PowerSDR could have been soo much more if someone were dedicated to working on it more.  This isn't a slam on anyone, it's just a feeling that NAP3 leaves you with, even lacking all the features of PowerSDR, as compared to using the Flex 5000 with Power SDR.  You can see some screenshots in my updates on my blog if you haven't seen the NAP3 version of PowerSDR

There is a noticeable and audible difference when comparing the KX3 and the Flex 5000.  Visually it's surprising to see that on the flex Panadaptor it shows a weaker signal than the NaP3 display does.  But listening is where you hear a difference.  This is again completely unscientific though and could be just the difference in the receive EQ settings.  More time comparing is needed.  Honestly, with the time I have available, it may never happen either.

It's ironic that we now have an SDR of sorts with knobs but we don't talk about it more.  It really is nice being able to  reach over and tune with a real radio interface with knobs and having physical buttons to change bands, adjust gain, ect.  If one wanted to set things up just so, you could literally switch between SDR architectures on the fly or listen simultaneously in real time.  It's literally like having two SDRs in one when you use it this way.  

Remember, on Xmit, it's not going to be like a flex radio or some others, your going to go through the physical radio architecture and not the PC.  In this regard, i am guessing there is not much difference in using a physical transceiver with an SDR receiver handling all the receiving.  So as exciting as it seems, in the end it's all not really that special and not really very new technology.  The upside is you have one box.  The down side is you have 12 watts max without an external amp.

In this use case, one is also forcing a box do do something it wasn't really intended to do.  With this said we can compare it to high end transceivers but in my humble opinion given its cost and real intended use as a mobile QRP rig it's not reasonable to think its going to excel as a replacement for a high-end base station transceiver and there are far easier and perhaps even less expensive paths to get there.  If you stop and think about it for a moment. You could buy just the base SDR and couple it with better software and use it as a sound card SDR for $900.  Say a QS1R and a TS-590 for example?  Smiley

Remember, what's intriguing for me about all this is that it's another SDR, I can take it with me, it's small and the lab tests out it at the top of the receivers chart.  It's not because of who makes it, and it wasn't too expensive to purchase all things considered.  There isn't really any more to it for me.  I wanted to experiment with this cool new radio.

Last but not least, keep in mind a few things about all my comments before considering them.  I am playing with all this for lure fun!  Fun in this hobby is my primary objective.  I am not looking for a place in the Ham hall of fame, don't chase awards, ect.

This is all with regards to SSB, I have not tested digital or other modes yet.  I build systems  a step at time so I can keep track of issues I create verses real issues.  Digital modes will come in time.  Also, I am far from an expert, again, not an EE and a pretty new ham.  

Finally, I am not here to sell you on these radios.  I am not here to sell you off these radios either.  It's your hard earned money and you need to decide for yourself how to spend it or not spend it.  

I admit making a joke there with Gene..  Sorry about that Gene, it's not passive aggressive.  I wanted to make light of all that has passed here.  If you met me you might think me one of the nicer people you'd meet.  And then again you might not, lol. Who knows!  Sorry man, none of this is personal for me and I hope it never becomes so for you.

Fact is, each ham here makes or breaks their own image, so it's not my job to settle any scores here.  I won't play around with people here either.  That's why if you play with me it usually doesn't work out too well.  Thats why if people struggle dealing with me, its because I am only really here to talk about SDR radios, thats really it. Seriously!  

Yes, I have been side tracked and made some mistakes.  I have been known to enjoy a good debate, but not so much these days.  Life is too short.  Ha ha, some people got me!  Jokes on me I guess if that was the goal!

I'll admit a mistake when I make one because I don't want to pass misinformation or be responsible for any decisions you make based off of listening to me.  That's my disclaimer, read me and decide at your own risk.

I came back here because people wrote me and asked me to try one last time.  So I am here right now, wont be as much as I was.  If it ceases to be useful to others or ceases to be fun then I will move on.

One last thing that I was reminded about in an e-mail. While Stan might seem hard on Flex radios and hard on Flex owners, flex radio users ought to thank Stan because his hounding definitely accounts for a lot of fixes that made their products better.  Stan gets no credit for that, only grief plus the pain and troubles he had with the radio itself.  Thanks Stan!

If I find anything else of interest good or bad with the Kx3 I will share it.

Sorry for this long post!

73
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:50:45 PM by NI0Z » Logged

NI0Z
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2012, 07:09:56 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3TsFBKhzxE&sns=em

I am finding that the default settings are the default settings for a reason.  This is with default settings and that horrible hand mic.  Smiley  Mic  gain at 23.  Using little cheap iHome speakers for the sound.  The video was recorded on a cell phone.

Best way to know if the audio in a rig is decent is to just try one yourself.  Find a ham in a local club that has one that will invite you over to play, field day, ect.  Hands on and ears on, there is no substitue to find out if the issues being reported are real or hype.

I noticed some audio distortion/vibration towards the end of the video.  It sounded a bit like a rattle at 1:50 or so.  It has hard to tell if it was from your external speakers or from the cell phone recording.  I listened to it on my iPad as well as my home computer to make sure it was not my speakers.  Otherwise, it sounded pretty good.

Gene


The noise you hear was not from the KX3.  How do I know, because I recorded some more videos this evening and did hear maybe what you hear playing the video back, but I know live I didn't hear those things.  I will have two more videos tomorrow that will likely make it more evident that it's the cell phones mic and it's limited ability to capture the highs in ham radio.  Also, my chair when I move around makes some noises as well in these.

Check them out, make your own conclusion.

You'll also likely be surprised at some info I will share about one of the videos.
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NI0Z
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2012, 08:20:37 PM »

This is actualy the second of two QSOs tonight.  The crackling you hear is the cell phone speaker when you hear distortion.  I did not hear this live during the QSO.  Note, it happens with both the straight radio with attached iHome speakers and then with the sound being processed by the SDR software coming through the Bose PC speakers.  You should be able to see when I switch over and briefly run both simultaneously.

You'll hear N6JW play a short clip of my audio back.  I have to laugh because in the video it sound a lot better than it actually did.  You could tell live there was quite a bit of static due to my lower power and the fact it had the added static of coming back to me.  

You can see my power in and out if you look close at the meters to the right on the screen.  I didn't retune until after these two videos, so only 60 watts on my end for these. 

I think that last time I talked to N6JW he was testing with his KX3 on an amp and experimenting.  How ironic! Smiley. He's on a K3, Amp running about 500 watts and Spider Beam in this QSO. Notice on the Panadaptor no splatter on his signal.  You can see splatter on other signals I think if you watch the Panadaptor closely.

The ATU in the KX3 is bypassed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv9oNxdqyH4&sns=em

I'll post the other tomorrow, it's still uploading from my phone to YouTube. Smiley

Have fun and if you have questions, just ask and I'll do my best to answer!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 08:33:56 PM by NI0Z » Logged

KE5JPP
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2012, 03:39:41 AM »

This is actualy the second of two QSOs tonight.  The crackling you hear is the cell phone speaker when you hear distortion.  I did not hear this live during the QSO.  Note, it happens with both the straight radio with attached iHome speakers and then with the sound being processed by the SDR software coming through the Bose PC speakers.  You should be able to see when I switch over and briefly run both simultaneously.

You'll hear N6JW play a short clip of my audio back.  I have to laugh because in the video it sound a lot better than it actually did.  You could tell live there was quite a bit of static due to my lower power and the fact it had the added static of coming back to me.  

You can see my power in and out if you look close at the meters to the right on the screen.  I didn't retune until after these two videos, so only 60 watts on my end for these. 

I think that last time I talked to N6JW he was testing with his KX3 on an amp and experimenting.  How ironic! Smiley. He's on a K3, Amp running about 500 watts and Spider Beam in this QSO. Notice on the Panadaptor no splatter on his signal.  You can see splatter on other signals I think if you watch the Panadaptor closely.

The ATU in the KX3 is bypassed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv9oNxdqyH4&sns=em

I'll post the other tomorrow, it's still uploading from my phone to YouTube. Smiley

Have fun and if you have questions, just ask and I'll do my best to answer!

Why so much splatter in the spectrum when you are transmitting?  Also, the opposite sideband rejection on transmit does not seem to be very good as indicated by the energy in the spectrum display while you are transmitting.

Gene
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NI0Z
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2012, 03:57:05 AM »

It's my belief that your not actually seeing what actually goes out on Xmit on the Panadaptor and that what your seeing right now is in large part interference as far as the splatter goes.  

Remember above, I said I have an Xmit problem running through HRD with NA3P.  IE, what I believe you are seeing is an actual problem of leaky RF in my setup related,to my use of HRD for which I do not have an explanation for at this time.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 04:40:42 AM by NI0Z » Logged

NI0Z
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2012, 04:44:09 AM »

Here is the second QSO to Wales 60 watts max same setup as,the first.  This video shows the equipment as well.  Sorry, this one takes a little while to make the QSO also, hard to break the pile up with lower power.

Again I will try to answer questions if you have them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXus4ecYzo&sns=em

Again, my appologies for the low grade video, had to hold the phone camera and QSO at same time as well, I don't use VOX either.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 05:17:37 AM by NI0Z » Logged

KE5JPP
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2012, 05:53:38 AM »

It's my belief that your not actually seeing what actually goes out on Xmit on the Panadaptor and that what your seeing right now is in large part interference as far as the splatter goes.  

Remember above, I said I have an Xmit problem running through HRD with NA3P.  IE, what I believe you are seeing is an actual problem of leaky RF in my setup related,to my use of HRD for which I do not have an explanation for at this time.

It looks like the typical splatter and poor opposite sideband rejection you can see any day on the bands if you have a panadapter.  This is the advantage of a panadapter.  You can see your transmit signal as well.

One way to determine this is to use your Flex5K terminated into a dummy load and monitoring your KX3 transmit signal.  Were you possibly running too much clipping or compression?  How about the ALC level?

Gene
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NI0Z
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2012, 06:58:22 AM »

Up to you to believe me, however, I have already had a few Flex users validate that the signal I produce is tight.  Honestly, if you would have asked me about this 4 months ago, I would probably either go check it, or not understand it.  I think you and Zenki got me paranoid about splatter.  Once I read about it I Had people spot check me with the Flex and I was ok there as well.

 I will say though I see lots of splatter from all kinds of radios out there, yes, even K3s, FT 5000's ect and so my GUESS on this is that either they have issues in their shacks or that radio performance greatly varies from radio to radio.  If you look closely on the second QSO you can see that the guy i'm talking to has a little skirt on the bottom left of his signal lurking there on occasion.  Contrast that to N6JW's K3 signal and lots of thoughts can come to mind why two K3s are so different.  But our shacks consist of more than radios.  Look at my shack right now, it's a bit of a mess because of trying to integrate new additional radios.

Next time I am on and catch a person with a Panadaptor I will kindly ask them to send a screen shot if you want to see first hand what my signal looks like on a distant end.  

Keep in mind that I am not sending transmit audio through the software so what you are seeing is a representation of it looped back through the IQ lines.  What's my point?  Well, connecting NA3P through HRD I have unique issues verses connecting directly from NA3P to the radio.  None of this experimenting I am doing is really supported by anyone.  I also have 5Db of gain set on the sound card software as well so the skirt if that is what your referring to may be a gross misrepresentation of what is actually transmitted.  That's my best guess at this point and maybe some kind of loop due to polling times or delays between HRD and the radio and NA3P and HRD.

My goal is to not be using NA3P here in the next month.  We will just see how all that goes, it's all a big experiment for me.

Hope you enjoyed the videos, it's coincidence that the QSO's happened to be with K3's this time.  Making more videos of this setup as it sits right now would be a bore for all, so I will probably just read here for a while now and respond to any questions if I can.

Perhaps another real user who is more qualified can help as well.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 07:10:59 AM by NI0Z » Logged

ZENKI
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2012, 03:51:00 AM »

Its fair to say that every radio splatters. Its by how much the splatter is suppressed by that  is the main concern.

The KX3 will be probably be ok at 10 watts of output because the potential for collateral damage is low because of the low power and poor antennas.

Why I am not impressed by 10 watt QRP radios and their IMD performance is that its inevitable that many operators will chose to  boost the signal with an external amplifier. 9 times out of 10 the choice is
a lousy crap box CB amp with poor IMD performance. There is this very  discussion on the Yahoo KX3 group now. People boasting about how good  a crap IMD performance RM Italy CB amp is when used
on a QRP radio. This is utter stupidity really by hams who are just following their  ex CB practices.

The point is that if the radio has poor IMD  performance and you combine it with a even worst IMD performance amp,  the total  combined IMD performance is worst than the best IMD performance from  either the radio or the AMP.
Its seems its going to be difficult to break the common QRP practice of using lousy amps with radios that have questionable IMD performance.

When radio is sold as   a 10 watt qrp radio its IMD performance is optimized for 10 watt QRP levels with low power. The radio wont have sufficient IMD performance for 1500 watt legal output level with big antennas. This essential
point many QRP enthusiasts forget about when stupidly connecting a CB amp to the output of their QRP radios.

Its early days for the KX3 we will have to wait for the ARRL review. The one aspect of the KX3's design that will be correct is that it will have a transmitter that does not produce ALC splatter. I am not optimistic about the IMD performance of a battery operated radio. The KX3 probably has  the potential to  use adaptive pre-distortion techniques that could give it the ultimate IMD performance. The design has a lot of potential.

A 10 watt QRP radio if it had sufficient IMD performance would make a nice  driver for a tube like the 4cx1500B. A 4cx1500b could deliver full legal output with less that 5 watts of drive. I would not do this with a radio that has marginal
IMD performance. This aspect of QRP radios utility is lost on the designers of QRP radio designers, they really squander the radios potential by producing a low power radio with poor IMD performance which could make excellent drivers for tetrode amplifiers.  It would be very easy to homebrew a 200 watt tube amp that only takes 1 watt of drive or less.


Up to you to believe me, however, I have already had a few Flex users validate that the signal I produce is tight.  Honestly, if you would have asked me about this 4 months ago, I would probably either go check it, or not understand it.  I think you and Zenki got me paranoid about splatter.  Once I read about it I Had people spot check me with the Flex and I was ok there as well.

 I will say though I see lots of splatter from all kinds of radios out there, yes, even K3s, FT 5000's ect and so my GUESS on this is that either they have issues in their shacks or that radio performance greatly varies from radio to radio.  If you look closely on the second QSO you can see that the guy i'm talking to has a little skirt on the bottom left of his signal lurking there on occasion.  Contrast that to N6JW's K3 signal and lots of thoughts can come to mind why two K3s are so different.  But our shacks consist of more than radios.  Look at my shack right now, it's a bit of a mess because of trying to integrate new additional radios.

Next time I am on and catch a person with a Panadaptor I will kindly ask them to send a screen shot if you want to see first hand what my signal looks like on a distant end.  

Keep in mind that I am not sending transmit audio through the software so what you are seeing is a representation of it looped back through the IQ lines.  What's my point?  Well, connecting NA3P through HRD I have unique issues verses connecting directly from NA3P to the radio.  None of this experimenting I am doing is really supported by anyone.  I also have 5Db of gain set on the sound card software as well so the skirt if that is what your referring to may be a gross misrepresentation of what is actually transmitted.  That's my best guess at this point and maybe some kind of loop due to polling times or delays between HRD and the radio and NA3P and HRD.

My goal is to not be using NA3P here in the next month.  We will just see how all that goes, it's all a big experiment for me.

Hope you enjoyed the videos, it's coincidence that the QSO's happened to be with K3's this time.  Making more videos of this setup as it sits right now would be a bore for all, so I will probably just read here for a while now and respond to any questions if I can.

Perhaps another real user who is more qualified can help as well.
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