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Author Topic: All band verticals  (Read 10980 times)
W8JI
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2012, 05:13:03 AM »

I don't think the 43 ft verticals are that bad above 80 meters if someone could put a tuner at the base or use really short coax, but they sure are oversold. Especially when 100 feet of coax is added, and the tuner moved into the house.

Back when I was a Novice, an exceptionally smart technical fellow (W8HSW Paul Wagner) had a telephone pole with a wire up the side, and a tuning network at the base. He had a good ground system. His system worked exceptionally well, compared to other stations at that time, on 160-40 meters. A dipole was probably much better on 20, but he had an exceptional signal with not too much height on low bands.

That really was the first equivalent of a 43 ft vertical I'd ever seen, but it had a big tuning network in a box on the pole.  I'd wager he would never consider tuning it inside the house!

The problem I have is by the time we buy the vertical and a good tuner, we really don't do as well as a $200 trap vertical. None of them work well on 80 or 160, partly because of length causing huge voltages and partly because of the inabilitly to get efficient tuners that handle any power in loads like that on 160 (and lesser extent) 80.

I just think there are better ways to spend $1000 or more, and we have gotten to the point where one manufacturer starts making an exaggereted claim and everyone else is compelled to repeat it.

Now we even have groundplanes that really cannot work as groundplanes, except perhaps on one band. Look at the CB antennas that people claim can be used from 40-10, and the resistor loaded HF vertical that has substantial coax radiation sold by Comet.

There seem to be no limits.

73 Tom
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W5DXP
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 05:20:40 AM »

The best proof of the lack of knowledge out there is, as you point out, the 43 ft. verticals..... Following closely are all the "end fed" half wave antennas and all the convoluted forms of OCF's.

It should be noted that there are actually functional versions of those antennas and that many AM broadcast antennas are non-resonant with a matching network at the base. In the past, many hams did the same thing for non-resonant, single-band verticals, e.g. 80m, and they worked well.

1. A 43 ft. vertical with an adequate number of radials and driven by an autotuner at the feedpoint is a pretty good mufti-band antenna for 80m-20m operation. So is a 22 ft. vertical for 40m-10m operation. I had a 22 ft. vertical elevated to 22 ft. with four 22 ft. sloping radials fed by an SG-230 at the feedpoint. EZNEC sez such an antenna has 4.2 dBi at 11 deg radiation pattern on 10m.

2. A Zepp is a 1/2WL end-fed antenna and works pretty well as a single-band antenna. MFJ sells versions of this antenna with a 1/4WL shorted stub matching system. Here's why they work well. Note that the common-mode current maximum point on the 1/4WL matching section is at the antenna feedpoint.

http://www.w5dxp.com/ZeppCrnt.JPG

3. The original OCF was the Windom, essentially a vertical with an OCF top hat, which worked well against a good radial field.

As originally engineered, all of these antennas are/were good performers. It is the changes by modern-day profiteers that results in the present-day poor performance. Buyer beware when something seems too good to be true.
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73, Cecil, www.w5dxp.com
The purpose of an antenna tuner is to increase the current through the radiation resistance at the antenna to the maximum available magnitude resulting in a radiated power of I2(RRAD) from the antenna.
KF7NUA
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Posts: 153




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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2012, 05:47:18 AM »

It is the changes by modern-day profiteers that results in the present-day poor performance. Buyer beware when something seems too good to be true.


Anyone that is new to Ham radio and reading this post trying to learn should print this quote and tape it to your wallet, it is the truth.
I am a 16month old ham and I did not believe what everyone was telling me because I new better, I was reading the reviews for antennas on other sites and believing every word written, what a mistake.
I now have a garage full of these miracle wonder antennas and I now wonder what to do with them. Sure they work, but compared to what.

6 months ago I visited a person that had just a simple homemade dipole and I could not believe how well it worked, I was amazed......

Listen to what is said in this thread and learn, unless you know it all and want to do it on your own, then I have a or should I say, many new unused antennas for sale cheap  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:25:29 AM by KF7NUA » Logged
WB2WIK
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Posts: 20547




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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2012, 08:23:50 AM »

It is the changes by modern-day profiteers that results in the present-day poor performance. Buyer beware when something seems too good to be true.


I am a 16month old ham

You're doing great for someone not yet one and a half years old. Cheesy
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KF7NUA
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 08:41:03 AM »


Quote

I am a 16month old ham

You're doing great for someone not yet one and a half years old. Cheesy

That happend over 60yrs ago   Grin
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W5WSS
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Posts: 1652




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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 09:17:03 AM »

Yes to Tom and Cecil....I have made the 22 ft wire version held up by a rope to a tree above work with an auto tuner here at this vacation cottage. But it is because I knew to make the system feedpoint located directly at the shack entry point. Where is also located the radials to feedpoint junction. So in my case the tuner is just inside the shack window sill and wx proofed and the coaxial cable  to the equipment is all located on the tuned side of the network auto tuner in the 1:1 region allowing better equipment placement away from the antenna entry.for best performance Obviously one would prefer to wx proof and remote control an auto tuner outside at the base of a tube vertical located more in the clear and open ground with a verified optimized radial system think one would be very susceptible to lightning damage of the tuner at that location though  but I found a  second best method and must say that the 22 ft version offers utility respective to lower angle work. Yes the 22 ft length is not too long for 10m to 40m keeping the radiation at low enough angles for usefulness and my interests. One should seriously plan on a counterpoise for such a system but this technique offered me an easy and effective antenna solution with equipment that I already own and brought with me yes the shorter vertical 5/8 wave highest frequency of interest to 1/4 wave length lowest frequency of interest will present radiation useful for longer dx work.
So if one chooses to use this technique the L network tunes my system nicely but is a little stressed on 15m,
For safety I installed a copper ground rod and wander lead to redirect the antenna circuit to the rod and unplug all the equipment from the wall.....The radials are elevated and slope downward from the height of the feedpoint at 4ft up to plastic tent stakes in a half circle about the antenna junction and are ground isolated.
The purpose of the safety system is for lightning and induced static buildup during stormy weather and when away be alert to your areas forecast and plan ahead when using any antenna system.
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N8CMQ
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Posts: 353




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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2012, 04:52:22 PM »

Hey Tom, do you recall W2FMI, Jerry Sevick?
Jerry inspired me to study and learn about the ground mounted vertical when I was in high school and a novice looking for a good antenna.
You also inspire me to keep studying!

  TNX OM E 73!
    N8CMQ
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WB2WIK
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Posts: 20547




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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2012, 05:16:40 PM »

Yes to Tom and Cecil....I have made the 22 ft wire version held up by a rope to a tree above work with an auto tuner here at this vacation cottage. 

Difference: I know I've worked you on the air several times, and you're a real "ham's ham," who experiments, takes data on the results, and then experiments more.

Hams always did that a long time ago, and you're still doing that.

A lot of new hams aren't and don't.
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W5WSS
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Posts: 1652




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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2012, 10:57:59 PM »

Thanks Steve. Yeah you and I we have been around for awhile. My experience around ham radio Time now exceeds 43 yrs.
I continue to be passionate,intense or whatever about Rf and the physical laws that rule relative antenna system behavior where antenna function better serves our operating objectives.

Steve I know that you already know the following but just want to share with everyone that needs an alternative antenna solution on a budget:

The multiple band wire non-trap vertical is better understood now and offers a utility that almost rivals a trap vertical that behaves as a quarter wave per band. Offers a utility To a growing amateur population that needs stealth.

The designer should understand that the multi band wire trapless vertical including a good counterpoise can be utilised from just adjacent to the window sill with the tuner being located inside and adjacent to the interior window sill and methods can be implemented for safe longterm use safely.

This solution assumes that many amateurs already own the auto tuner and a good balun so for everyone sake I have posted my findings scattered about the various threads, to offer hams a reasonable alternative with about $20 worth of wire.

The system auto tuner balun and antenna may still be remotely controlled efficiently from another part of the home while the tuner and balun together located at the interior window sill places them in a wx proof environment.

Today the non trap multi band vertical w/counterpoise can be reasonably relied upon to serve 5 bands 10m,12m,15m,17m,20m when the vertical wire is 22 ft long offering a pattern that rivals the trap vertical and almost equal field strength.

The wire antenna can be routed upward and held in place with a small rope over a tree limb and dead ended tied off etc.

When one already has the tuner and balun one can" if one chooses to; utilise the concepts and methods that I and others have found to be reliable.

The trapless wire vertical system can be operated beyond the optimal 4 bands (where the antenna behaves similar to a quarter wave) but the pattern changes to higher angles as we leave the 1/4-5/8 wave zone optimal area for higher bands and or gain and usability fall off dramatically if we go below the 1/4-5/8 wave zone.

For safety purposes an 8ft  copper ground rod should be driven down adjacent to the antenna exit/entry point and a safety wire wander lead of suitable length & diameter should be in place for quick expedite attachment for the purpose of link and redirect the antenna to the ground rod during stormy weather.

The Trapless vertical multiple band system can be gratifying when designed and used for the intended understood function of reasonable HF long skywave work. 73

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N6AJR
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2012, 12:13:51 PM »

And let us not forget the best antennas of all time, those with some  specific length of wire  as a dipole and a big fat 50 ohm resistor across the feed point. and believe it  or not they actually worked in a fair to middling manner.  Also there is on manufacture who makes a series of antennas that could pass as modern art, or bird feeders, which act a a cap hat on the end of a long chunk of coax and the feed coax acts as the antenna.

but the old axiom is  that most any thing will work, just some better than others. A 16 foot dipole works better on 20 m than a base loaded  ham stick on your car, but both will make a contact or two.

after all it is a hobby ( or obsession?)
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K1ZCY
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Posts: 3




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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2012, 08:55:40 PM »

I have been a ham for many years and have experimented with lots of verticals. The trap verticals do have very low loses. Listen to what w8ji says, it is true. I have always had mine ground mounted with at least 50 radials. Any more than that is a waiste of time. I also use parallel dipoles and center fed zepp. And at times the vertical beats them. I have read up on these 43 and 33 foot verticals with unun and baluns at the feed point. To tell you the truth I would not waste my time making one or buying one.
73's John
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K0OD
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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2012, 10:29:59 PM »

43' happens to be a quarter wavelength on the 60 meter band where 100 watts and most modes are allowed as of March 2012.   
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W5WSS
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Posts: 1652




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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2012, 02:32:10 PM »

Ko0d yes that is correct one could opt for the lower bands with the 43ft trapless vertical. I can quick change my vertical wire choosing between a 22 ft or a 43 ft and do so often.
I enjoy the advantage of equal pattern,equal gain and equal overall service from the versatile technique.
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NR9R
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Posts: 149




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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2012, 03:04:57 PM »

What irks me is how antenna makers are labeling these non-resonant radiating elements as "multiband antennas."  ZeroFive Antennas is the worst offender I have found.  They have a "multiband verticals" category on their website with 10-40m versions to 10-160m versions.  They advertise "NO LOSSY TRAPS TO BURN OUT AND FILL UP WITH WATER.". 

ZeroFive also advertises a "6-20 METER MULTIBAND VEE LADDER LINE FED DIPOLE."  I was disappointed to find out that this antenna, like the others is simply an electrically fixed length radiating element--you deign and engineer the matching network for multiband capabilities.   
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WB2WIK
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2012, 03:33:09 PM »

I just designed the most fabulous multiband wire antenna ever.

This is trapless and works on any frequency at all.

See details here: https://www.google.com/search?q=copper+wire+spools&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=kGS&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=X_ZYUMLLL4P6iwLJt4GgCg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=631

 Wink
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