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Author Topic: Flourescent or Incadescant?  (Read 25657 times)
W8JX
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Posts: 6659




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« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2012, 02:39:56 PM »

Last 100 watt incandescent bulbs I had were about 1700 lumens not 1500 and a 75 watt was around 1200+ lumens.

What brand and type were they?

73 de Jim, N2EY

As I recall they were GE 750 hr bulbs. It has been some time ago.
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WX7G
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Posts: 6320




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« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 05:58:48 PM »

The EcoVantage bulb represents a 25% reduction in energy usage over a 100W incandescent because it is only 72W. It is not 25% more efficient.

A 100W incandescent bulb puts out 1500 Lumens for an efficiency of 15 Lumens per watt.
A 72W EcoVantage bulb puts out 1250 Lumens for an efficiency of 17 Lumens per watt.

That's only an efficiency increase of about 13%.


Here are the correct numbers:

100 W incandescent bulb at 1150 lumens outputs 11.5 L/W.
72W EcoVantage bult at 1250 luments output 17.4 L/W.

The efficiency increase is 51%.
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N2EY
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Posts: 3925




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« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 06:46:46 PM »

Last 100 watt incandescent bulbs I had were about 1700 lumens not 1500 and a 75 watt was around 1200+ lumens.

What brand and type were they?

73 de Jim, N2EY

As I recall they were GE 750 hr bulbs. It has been some time ago.

With all due respect, I'd like to see packaging or a spec sheet. 1700 lumens from a 100 watt conventional incandescent doesn't jive with physics.

73 de Jim, N2EY

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W8JX
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Posts: 6659




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« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2012, 07:50:09 PM »

Last 100 watt incandescent bulbs I had were about 1700 lumens not 1500 and a 75 watt was around 1200+ lumens.

What brand and type were they?

73 de Jim, N2EY

As I recall they were GE 750 hr bulbs. It has been some time ago.

With all due respect, I'd like to see packaging or a spec sheet. 1700 lumens from a 100 watt conventional incandescent doesn't jive with physics.

73 de Jim, N2EY



Well it does jive completely. I have not bought any for years and used to used 150 watt bulbs in a barn and they were rated around 2400 lumens. I even had some 300 watt ones at one time.  Biggest bulbs of that type i have now still in package are some GE 60 watt lights rated at 880 lumens and 40 watt rated at 485 lumes. I know 100's were around 1650 to 1700.

Also even if you increased the efficiency of a incandescent 50%, going from 3 to 4.5% is nothing to brag about. (going from a 97 watt to a 95.5 watt heat big deal) High efficent replacement are dimmer than one they replaced.
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WX7G
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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2012, 05:33:19 AM »

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/100-watt-standard-shape-light-bulbs/

1000bulbs.com stocks 100 watt incandescent bulbs with life hours of 750 to 20,000. The light output varies from 950 to 1600 lumens.

Factoid: The life of a 100 watt bulb is inversely proportional to the 12th power of the RMS voltage.
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WX7G
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« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2012, 10:29:45 AM »

And visible light output is proportional to the 3.4 power of voltage.

To make a 120 volt, 750 hour bulb last 20,000 hours it needs to be run at 91 volts. The output will drop from 1600 to 630 Lumens.
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WX7G
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« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2012, 12:50:14 PM »

How do we procure a 100 watt, 91 volt bulb having a 20,000 hour life?  We use a 150 watt, 120 volt bulb having a 750 hour life.


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W8JX
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« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2012, 05:28:06 PM »

How do we procure a 100 watt, 91 volt bulb having a 20,000 hour life?  We use a 150 watt, 120 volt bulb having a 750 hour life.

I can remember many years ago buying some cheap long life 60w bulbs for drop lights. They were marked 130v not 120.
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N2EY
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Posts: 3925




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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2012, 07:33:18 AM »

Last 100 watt incandescent bulbs I had were about 1700 lumens not 1500 and a 75 watt was around 1200+ lumens.

What brand and type were they?

73 de Jim, N2EY

As I recall they were GE 750 hr bulbs. It has been some time ago.

With all due respect, I'd like to see packaging or a spec sheet. 1700 lumens from a 100 watt conventional incandescent doesn't jive with physics.

73 de Jim, N2EY



Well it does jive completely. I have not bought any for years and used to used 150 watt bulbs in a barn and they were rated around 2400 lumens. I even had some 300 watt ones at one time.  Biggest bulbs of that type i have now still in package are some GE 60 watt lights rated at 880 lumens and 40 watt rated at 485 lumes. I know 100's were around 1650 to 1700.

Let's do the math!

2400 lumens from 150 watts is 16 lumens per watt.

1700 lumens from 100 watts is 17 lumens per watt.

880 lumens from 60 watts is 14.66 lumens per watt

485 lumens from 40 watts is 12.125 lumens per watt

All else being equal, the efficiency of a conventional incandescent increases with wattage. It does not
 make sense that a 100 watter is more efficient than a 150 watter unless something else is going on.

One BIG difference is whether or not the bulb is frosted. Clear bulbs give more light - a clear-bulb
72 watt EcoVantage gives 1520 lumens, which is significantly more than the frosted version. Same for
conventional incandescents.


Also even if you increased the efficiency of a incandescent 50%, going from 3 to 4.5% is nothing to brag about. (going from a 97 watt to a 95.5 watt heat big deal) High efficent replacement are dimmer than one they replaced.

In my experience the replacements are not significantly dimmer.

The efficiency increase may not seem like much the way you present it, but when it comes to kilowatt-hours
it is very significant. Particularly if a bulb is used a lot.

And here's the bottom line:

You may remember 100 watters that gave 1650-1700 lumens and lasted 750 hours. Maybe they even existed.

But can you buy them now?

I stopped by Home Depot yesterday and the best I could find were 100 watters that gave 1530 lumens.
A 72 watt clear EcoVantage gives 1520 lumens. 28% savings in electricity for the same light. These
numbers are right off the packaging, not from memory.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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WX7G
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Posts: 6320




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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2012, 08:51:34 AM »

A frosted bulb is no less efficient than a clear bulb. The frosted material disperses rather than attenuates the light.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/standard-shape-light-bulbs/

100 watt, frosted, 5000 hour life, 950 Lumens
100 watt, clear, 5000 hour life, 950 lumens

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is the EcoAdvantage more efficient than a conventional incandescent? It is a halogen bulb and the filament runs at a hotter temperature. The gas in the bulb causes the evaporated filament material to condense back onto the filament thereby extending the life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note also that because the EcoAdvantage is classified as a 75 watt bulb, rather than a 100 watt bulb, under law it has one more year before it must exit the U.S. market.
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 3925




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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2012, 11:40:38 AM »

A frosted bulb is no less efficient than a clear bulb. The frosted material disperses rather than attenuates the light.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/standard-shape-light-bulbs/

100 watt, frosted, 5000 hour life, 950 Lumens
100 watt, clear, 5000 hour life, 950 lumens

For those particular bulbs, maybe.

But check some other types and you'll see that the rated lumens of the clear versions are considerably higher.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is the EcoAdvantage more efficient than a conventional incandescent? It is a halogen bulb and the filament runs at a hotter temperature. The gas in the bulb causes the evaporated filament material to condense back onto the filament thereby extending the life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note also that because the EcoAdvantage is classified as a 75 watt bulb, rather than a 100 watt bulb, under law it has one more year before it must exit the U.S. market.

I don't think that's true.

The law does not outlaw incandescents. What it does is set standards for efficiency for certain size bulbs which conventional incandescents can't meet = but halogens like EcoVantage can.

They will not be outlawed unless a new law is passed.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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WX7G
Member

Posts: 6320




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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2012, 11:55:24 AM »

N2EY, you are correct on the bulb law. It is efficiency that the new rules dictate. Here is a link to the California rules:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/lightbulbs/lightbulb_faqs.html

Here's a pamphlet from G.E. Lighting:

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/emea/images/Guide_to_changing_to_energy_efficient_lamps_Brochure_EN_tcm181-12666.pdf

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here is something on frosted bulbs. It turns out frosted bulbs have the same efficiency as clear bulbs. Perhaps you're thinking of "soft white" bulbs that do have an absorptive coating.

http://askville.amazon.com/difference-Frosted-Clear-Incandescent-Light-Bulbs-color/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=36446112

"There is no difference between the two types of bulbs other than the interior surface of the globe.  The construction of the filament and base are identical.

Some frosted bulbs use a white pigmented coating on the inside to change the color of the light and give it a more uniform dispersion.  In doing so, they reduce the effective light output somewhat, depending on the type of coating used.  These are usually called "Soft White" as opposed to "Standard."  The standard frosted bulb uses a ground-glass surface on the bulb's interior, which scatters the light, but does not absorb it and re-radiate it as heat.  As such, standard bulbs are a little better suited to completely enclosed fixtures, while soft white bulbs give a more pleasing light in recessed fixtures or in lamps where the bulb is exposed."


« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:04:43 PM by WX7G » Logged
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3925




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« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2012, 12:27:05 PM »

To WX7G,

I don't doubt your reference.

But, next time you're in Home Depot, Lowes, or someplace similar that has lots of lightbulb choices, check out the different lumen ratings on clear vs. frosted bulbs. Or check online.

Maybe it's the "soft white" thing. If one compares a clear bulb of one technology with the soft-white of a different one, the results can be skewed.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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W8JX
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Posts: 6659




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« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2012, 08:04:41 PM »

I was at Walmart and they have 100 watt replacement bulbs that use 72 watts and make 1490 lumens. They look like standard bulbs but they are halogen inside.
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You can embrace new computer/tablet technology and change with it or cling to old fall far behind....
N2EY
Member

Posts: 3925




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« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2012, 06:38:14 AM »

I was at Walmart and they have 100 watt replacement bulbs that use 72 watts and make 1490 lumens. They look like standard bulbs but they are halogen inside.

That's what Philips EcoVantage are. Of course other manufacturers use the same idea. I notice that the price has come down.

By putting the halogen capsule inside a regular A19 bulb, you get a bulb that looks and behaves like a conventional incandescent, but is efficient enough to meet the new regulations. Pays for itself in electricity saved - and then some.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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