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Author Topic: Your Preference & Why: Log Periodic vs. Trap Multi-Band Beam?  (Read 6931 times)
K4RVN
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Posts: 758




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« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 09:01:28 PM »

Jack,
You may want to consider a 5 or 6 band hex beam on your house. One coax feed line, 25 lb antenna. I retired my 3 element, 5 band quad of 20 plus years and went with a hex beam about 8 months or less ago.  I am very satisfied with the little antenna. This antenna works ok at 35 ft. On the air results are better than one would expect from the specs.
It is a two element beam. Mine is about 50 ft high.

Frank
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K2QB
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Posts: 103




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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 06:49:25 AM »

I went through the same decision making as you are going through a year ago. I did all the comparisons and decided on the Optibeam, OB9-5. 18' boom as you require, no traps to burn out or insert losses. Never a bit or remorse. Best antenna in my opinion that does what you are after and covers 5 bands. Mine is also roof top mounted. Visit my QRZ.com page to see a pic or email me direct and I'll be glad to provide more details.
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WA2OLZ
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Posts: 63




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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 11:32:53 AM »

Interesting - my hope was to narrow my beam selection based on experienced user input. What actually happened is the list grew insted of shrinking!

I put together a spreadsheet to capture the info on each antenna. The idea was to quantify factors while excluding emotion. I can't figure out how to attach the spreadsheet but would be glad to email it to anyone who would like a copy for their own evaluation. The spreadsheet records the Gain (dBd), F/B, SWR, Number of elements (total and per band), Power Rating, Boom Length, Longest Element, Turning Radius, Wind Load, Wind Surface Area, Weight and Price. All data points were collected from manufacturer websites, so I am not totally confident in the accuracy. The antennas include the Mosley TA-53M, Tennadyne T6 Log Periodic, Tennadyne T8 Log Periodic, Optibeam OB9-5, Force 12 C3-SS (my current antenna), K4KIO HexBeam and DX Engineering Hex Beam.

In general - and based only on manufacturer claims - the superior antenna in each category is as follows:
Gain (dBd) - Mosley TA-53M. No other even close.
Front to Back Ratio - Tennadyne T6 & T8 (Specs are identical) and Optibeam OB9-5
SWR - Mosley TA-53M with Optibeam OB9-5 a close second.
Elements per band - Mosely TA-53M, although the Log Periodics don't look at the spec.
Power Rating - No defined winner, but I expect they are all acceptable
Boom Length - Tennadyne T6, but all are within my eighteen foot maximum
Wind Load - Tennadyne T6
Wind Surface Area - DX Engineering Hex Beam
Weight - Either Hex Beam
Price - Tennadyne T6

Clearly no decision yet - but more fodder to consider!

Is there some wizadry I am missing that will allow me to post the chart?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 12:08:57 PM by WA2OLZ » Logged
N6AJR
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Posts: 9890




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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 12:09:54 PM »

I would highly reccommend the Steppir antennas. I have a 3 element 6-20 meter  steppir and love it.

 you can get it from a single element 6-20 rotatable dipole, to I think the bigest on they sell is a 1-80 meter antenna with 4 elements  on 6-40 m and a modified wire on 80.

 I just took mine off a 15 foot tall create roof tower and put it on a 40 foot tall rhon 25 with a glen martin hazer. the hazer lets me drop the antenna to the roof level for any repair.

The nice thing about a steppir is that the elements adjust to what ever frequency you are on. if you are on 6 m cw the elements are extended about 53 inches, if you are on 6m FM, they are several inches longer same if you are on 20 m cw they are like 16 feet 2 inches long and on 20 m ssb they are extended several inches . so you can go any where on any band and the antenna matches it, even on MARS freq's.

they also make several verticals.

 I am 100 % disable also and 64 years old and my ham friends have put up my tower, and antennas and run the coax and such. and the hazer lets me have someone to only come up to the roof level to do any fixin on the antenna.  do a google on Steppir. Check it out.
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N4UM
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 12:59:02 PM »

RE: Another point for the T-8.   My T-8 worked very well on 6 meters although the manufacturer made no claims about this fact.
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AB3CX
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Posts: 621




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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 03:39:12 PM »

I'm a T8 owner and daily user.  I live in a valley and have ridges to my east and west. I like my T8, it has been up 6 years with no issues and I have 316 countries worked and get great reports with it. It was not an expensive antenna to buy and it gives me 5 bands.  I rotate it with an inexpensive Yaesu G800 rotor. It has been kept up in my lowish wind area with a 3 section crank up tower at 50 feet with a house bracket at 20 feet.  What's not to like?  Do yourself a favor and do not use a hex beam.

Mike,  AB3CX
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K4RVN
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Posts: 758




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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 09:15:31 PM »

Jack,
I would chose the T8 over the TA53M because of the poor front to back of the Mosely as reviewed by ARRL.  I do think you are expecting too much running barefooted so would suggest that you consider an amp to boost your power. I base this on over 50 years operation on the bands with many antennas. ARRL did a review on the Mosely back in 1992 so here is a link if you care to view it.
http://alienjeff.net/review_mosley.pdf
 The T8 owners I have had a qso with on the air always had good signals during good propagation. For pile ups and tough band conditions you will need an amp to be consistent especially at your height stated of about 35 ft. The T8 should be about 38 ft minimum above ground for 20 meters according to the mfg. Your installation as stated will be marginal so don't expect peak performance. Also the antenna will weigh over 50 lbs and you did not say you planned to get another rotator, so maybe yours will handle the T8 wind load. I do think the T8 would give you some pleasure but not  all you are seeking unless you increase your power out. Good luck and enjoy the antenna of your choice. As for the hex beam, I have never heard of any owner who was not satisfied. They are great antennas but don't do miracles. A hex beam with 800 watts hangs in there with the best of the 5 banders has been my experience. It should not, but it does.

Frank
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WA2OLZ
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Posts: 63




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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2012, 04:28:39 PM »

Well, it is clearly not all that easy!

For me it is coming down to the F/B and traps of the TA-53M vs. the much longer element length of the Log Periodic. Second consideration is the price of the Mosley vs. the more experimental feed methods of the Tennadyne. The Hex Beam is a non-starter as we get a LOT of ice here every year (and, subjective as it mat be, It looks ugly!).

Honestly, either is a compromise for my situation (see post#1) and will do. I suspect my next step is to haunt the classified here, on QTH.com and QRZ.com to find an offer I can't pass up on one or the other. Not a very scientific answer, I know, but I can't have my cake and eat it too!

Thank you for all the input - much appreciated. It's not done until the fat lady sings so feel free to chime in. Also, if you I know of a great deal on one or the other let me know!

Oh, power --- yep, understood. My last HF rig was a TS-930 with a TL-933 running off 220VAC. That worked!

73/
Jack - WA2OLZ
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K4RVN
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Posts: 758




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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2012, 05:00:24 PM »

Jack, I think the hex is a good looking antenna, not trying to persuade you to own one as you know the old saying often quoted I'm sure about beauty. I was directing that spill to another post. I did want to mention that I read the article and looked at the photos of your most unusual rotator and through the roof mast. I have never seen that done and it was quite innovative in my opinion.  That is quite impressive to convince me that you will make a good choice. I do say this to you, at age 69 get what you want and can afford in the way of an antenna and equipment and enjoy the hobby to the fullest.

Frank
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KE2TR
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Posts: 130




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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 07:23:17 AM »

As far as the beam you have now the F12 C3SS will spank the crap outa the mosley and the T8 on 10 15 and 20, its a forward stacked monoband 2 element beam on those two band with a real 4.5dbd gain in real terms not on add copy like the mosley. Those traps rob you on DB's that you now already own. If you must have gain on the warc band and want only one antenna I would take the T8 over the mosley, in real world gains figures the log will be between 3-4db, I know they claim 6  and the mosley claims around 6-7 but that's if you believe in the Easter bunny too. Also if you could find a Stepper 2 element that would be good as well but its costly, very similar to what you own now but will give very good gain on the warc bands too. If you want to sell your C3SS let me know, I have one stored in my garage and when I move up state NY I'd like to get another and stack em, I have had a few of the F12 monobanders before from 40-10 and they really are excellent antennas but was also very impressed with a C3E I had on the tower as a mult antenna back when I had my contest station in the late 90's, that friggin antenna performed very well on the main 3 bands, mind you the 4 over 4 array on 20 did better but I was amazed how well that 18ft boom antenna played. On the other bands we had 5 over 5 on 15 and 4 over 4 over 4 on 10 so there was a larger spread but that C3 cranked. I don't know what F12 has for the 5 bands you want but it will perform better than the log, I believe they make a XR5 which is 2 elements full size on 20 to 10, that would be IMO the best even over the log. You have to really look at how these companies come up with there gain specs, the F12 true spec is the most honest an real, they give the gain over a dipole at 74', it might be a little less at lower height's but it not a free space gain either or some computer generated spec its real.
You should check out the Tribander comparisons done by Champion Radio Products and you will see that that the F12 C3 spanked allot of big boy tribanders in gain, remember gain is everything, you can have a beam with great FB but very little gain and gain is what put contacts in your log.
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WA2OLZ
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2012, 09:47:25 AM »

Well, that sure makes my decision a tad more involved. I took the advice of KE2TR and looked into the Force-12 offerings for a true five band beam. The only thing I can say about not having done so earlier is “Oops, I should have thought of that”!

Perusing the Force-12 Website (www.texasantennas.com) for a true 5-band antenna came up with the Force-12 XR5 multiband Yagi. It appears to offer true gain and a decent F/B on 10-12-15-17-20, all on an eighteen foot boom and fed by a single feedline. I think it is two elements on each band, like my current C-3 SS with the extra 4 elements dedicated to 12 and 17 meters. I can’t find online a spec for the longest element length so am assuming it is the same as the 20M elements on the C-3 SS at 24 feet (They should publish that spec as do the rest of the manufacturers).  

EHam.net user reviews are all positive, although there only a dozen posted. Google did not come up with any bad news either. The XR5 is not a lightweight, coming in at 56 pounds, comparable to the Mosley TA-53M and Tennadyne T8 and the specified wind surface area (8.5 square feet) is the highest on my ever growing spreadsheet. I think it should be OK for my unique installation (see my first reply on page one of this thread).

There is always one fly hiding in the honey. The only thing I see dissuading me from placing an order for a Force-12 XR5 is the budget busting price of $1,699. That’s a big price tag, almost double the hit for the Mosley or Tennadyne antennas. I’d go $1,000 for that antenna, but $1.7K (plus shipping) has me in sticker shock. It sure does look nice though. I'm not ruling it out, just drooling!

All of the input, advice and informational links provided have been fantastic. I really very much appreciate all of the sharing of knowledge here on eHam.net. Please keep it coming. Also, I stepped on my own tongue again by call the Hex-Beam ugly. That was uncalled for and I apologize. As Frank, K4RVN, said beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I need be careful or I’ll start in on politics – that will really shut down the thread!


« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 09:49:26 AM by WA2OLZ » Logged
AE5X
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Posts: 367


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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2012, 11:41:55 AM »

Here's what I bought, along with my justification for it:
http://www.ae5x.com/blog/2012/07/30/log-influenced-trapless-yagis/

Just got it put up Saturday - check out my online log for an indication of how I like it, including the WARC bands ;-)

John AE5X

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KE2TR
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Posts: 130




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« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2012, 08:51:01 AM »

I looked at the cycle 24 web site, they have an interesting antenna there, it kinda like the F12 but its 4 elements on 10(nice for the peek of the SS cycle), 2 elements on 15&20, it uses what looks to me is an all elements feed system and all the driven elements seem to be coupled to the single feedline, its not like the F12 which feeds the 20mtr driven and parasitically drives the other two bands. I think they did that cause F12 has a patent on that feed system. What is also interesting is they have some nice and low cost monobanders but the only one that seems strange is the 4 element 20 on a 17ft boom, there monobanders have good FB but the tribander has very little but until someone gets one in the air who knows. I am just happy to see another company bring some antennas to the market, it seems many like the stepper's, its a great concept and give the op optimized gain for the given band but for myself I forsee problems in the mechanical end, there is M2 which seems to build nice antennas but they are aimed at the hi end, F12 which started out at very reasonable price points but today I feel they are way overpriced for what you are getting. There is Mosley who has been doing the same thing for years and HyGain who has been taken over by MFJ so nothing new there and Cush Craft who is another MFJ takeover so with this Cycle 24 antenna maybe will see some new price points covered by the other companies. I know the price of metals has gone up and aluminum has been rising but many of these antennas have doubled or tripeled in the past 10 years.
I feel that the XR5 if your install can handle it would be the best as far as gain on the band of interest, maybe look for one used, that might save more than a few bucks and just keep on using the C3SS. The XR5's 20mtr reflector and driven are full size though so your looking at an element that longest is 36ft.
For myself I would really like to see F12 come out with version of a like C3ss with 3 elements that are LL on 20, 3 elements on 15 and 4 on 10, kinda like the XR19 but a lighter weight 18ft boom tribander with smaller footprint elements on 20. AS you can see the way there antennas work on the warc bands is more than good enough for myself, its 10,15 and 20 were you need the horse power. I am just glade that from the concept of the original designer of F12 tribanders (Tom N6BT) that he thought outa the box instead of following the others with another trapped antenna. A good friend of mine had taken down his TH7DXX and placed a C3 in its place, all he could say was wow, yes the TH7 had better FB but the gain was better on the C3, he was so impressed that bought another and stacked them 30ft apart, that was a killer setup without the need of a HD tower. I think the original owner, N6BT is trying to develop another antenna line but he is slow coming to market with his tribanders and there seems to be a lack of responce to e mails as well so maybe he is not ready to jump back in full swing again but he really changed the face of triband yagi's in the 90ies.
Jim
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N4AEQ
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« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2012, 05:32:23 PM »

 My log is only 28' high, it works great. The advantage of a log is it's resonant almost everywhere
that's why all TV vhf antennas are logs. I work in the cellular business and have alot of antenna test set equipment avalable, HP, Anritsu and others. The log will be resonant  even the
vhf,uhf bands for alot of frequency's. The problem is finding one at the same price as a beam
that's why everyone likes beams, they cheap and everywhere. I got lucky on my log deal or I would not have owned one for that reason.
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