Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

   Home   Help Search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What is the meaning of work in split 5 to 15 KHz up  (Read 5452 times)
WA4053SWL
Member

Posts: 174


WWW

Ignore
« on: October 01, 2013, 11:11:22 AM »

Today at noon I was listening the CY0P from Sable Is. working in split, and listened 5 to15 kHz up. I need some me explain how they work these stations, what is the meaning of this way of working, there are stations who spend time jumping from frequency to frequency trying to make contact, not be better and easier to work in split in one frequency?.
Logged
K7KB
Member

Posts: 618




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 12:34:58 PM »

Today at noon I was listening the CY0P from Sable Is. working in split, and listened 5 to15 kHz up. I need some me explain how they work these stations, what is the meaning of this way of working, there are stations who spend time jumping from frequency to frequency trying to make contact, not be better and easier to work in split in one frequency?.

The reason a DX station listens 5 - 15 up is to spread out the pileup. He works one or more people on a frequency and then may listen up or down a few KC's to pick up the next, etc. If everyone is calling on just one frequency then it's usually just chaos, especially if it's a particularly rare DX station.

John K7KB
Logged
WA4053SWL
Member

Posts: 174


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 01:52:53 PM »

Ok John.
From my point of view, when the split ONLY uses two frequencies, can be a help as this forms the DX station transmitting on a frequency quite clean. It makes sense then to use another frequency to listen to callers. However, now fashionable to use splits in ranges of up to 15 kHz for calling stations. In this case I think a demonstration of poor operation. A good operator does not need to receive but 15 khz and hearing experience. Also this means that for several days, they take up much space in the band that others can not use.
73 de George
Logged
AF3Y
Member

Posts: 3849




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 02:33:58 PM »

Ok John.
From my point of view, when the split ONLY uses two frequencies, can be a help as this forms the DX station transmitting on a frequency quite clean. It makes sense then to use another frequency to listen to callers. However, now fashionable to use splits in ranges of up to 15 kHz for calling stations. In this case I think a demonstration of poor operation. A good operator does not need to receive but 15 khz and hearing experience. Also this means that for several days, they take up much space in the band that others can not use.
73 de George

Your point of view explains why you are a SWLer instead of a ham. Just try working rare DX on only one frequency..... Roll Eyes Then...... spread the chasers out and watch the QSL rate improve greatly.

73, Gene AF3Y
Logged
N1UK
Member

Posts: 1568




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 02:58:26 PM »

15kHz split is nothing...the Bouvet dxpedition took it to a new level and had a 100kHZ split on 20m


Mark N1UK
Logged
W2IRT
Member

Posts: 2812


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 04:33:30 PM »

Ok John.
From my point of view, when the split ONLY uses two frequencies, can be a help as this forms the DX station transmitting on a frequency quite clean. It makes sense then to use another frequency to listen to callers. However, now fashionable to use splits in ranges of up to 15 kHz for calling stations. In this case I think a demonstration of poor operation. A good operator does not need to receive but 15 khz and hearing experience. Also this means that for several days, they take up much space in the band that others can not use.

There are anywhere from 100 to 50,000 people wanting to get through to a rare DX station, depending on the rarity, time of day, day of week and propagation. CY0P is a small-potatoes operation since Sable is on every couple of years, but it's still a fairly rare location for some parts of the world. How on earth would you expect anybody to pick out more than one or two next-door callsigns if all the callers were either on his working frequency or on one split frequency (let's say 5 up on SSB or 1 up on CW)? A big operation with thousands of callers needs to spread that load around a little bit in order to find someone in the clear. The mark of a good operator is limiting the size of the pileup to no more than 15 or 20 kHz on phone and no more than about 5-8 kHz on CW.

Just wait a week and see what a real pileup is like when Wake Island comes on.
Logged

www.facebook.com/W2IRT
Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll.
N1UK
Member

Posts: 1568




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 04:50:18 PM »

I am ready.....160m would be sweet


Mark N1UK
Logged
WA4053SWL
Member

Posts: 174


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 05:06:15 PM »

Well, I understand that it is not good who 200 stations calling on the same frequency, it is best to allocate these 200 stations 10 or 15 khz to say something, and I understand that is not the same hearing a DX to work it in the middle of a pile up, I'm not against the work in split, another thing is to use the split at contest, for me is not justified, I heard worse things for example, operators in cross band, even remember an expedition of Oman, he received on 40 meters and transmitted on 15. Also there are those who have no idea how to work a split and do not even ask, they keep calling and calling and calling but the DX station not pass them, they do not, keep calling in split, and the first basic rule for HAM is listen and listen, and understand how to work the operator. I understand that with the number of operators who do not listen today, I think without the split would be impossible to work DX stations, but it seems a nonsense to occupy a frequency range as wide, but surely I'm wrong.
73 George.
Logged
W2IRT
Member

Posts: 2812


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 06:23:30 PM »

You are wrong, George. In many cases it's not 100 or 200 stations calling, it's 10,000 or 20,000 stations calling!

Put yourself in the DX operator's shoes for a second and think about this. You are part of a team of 20 operators who have each paid $15,000 out of your own pocket and taken 6 or 8 weeks off work and away from the family in order to travel to an uninhabited island, set up your gear and talk to hopefully make 200,000 QSOs in ten days. You need to make those QSOs very quickly--hopefully in 10 seconds or less. Maybe 5 seconds on CW. The faster you work (this is called a fast "rate") the more you can put in the log. Ops need to keep a good rate going or things will get ugly fast.

How do they keep such a good rate? They work only the loudest stations that they can hear and for whom they're listening. So if a DXpedition is listening for only North America, they need to work all the loud and clear NA stations that are calling and work them extremely quickly. Now imagine you had 1000 people all talking at the same time on one single frequency, all shouting their callsigns over and over, how long do you think it would take to find one loud, clear callsign, call him make the exchange and call the next one? For maybe a few minutes they'd do OK but then all the signals would be basically the same strength, and what you hear is a loud rumble that never stops. It is simply not possibly to pick out a single call when things get like that. So you spread that rumble out, and you keep spreading it out until you get your rate back up to something reasonable again. If an op is very good, he can work down a pile very quickly and not need to resort to a 15 kHz split.

CY0P is a great example of this. They are in the class of semi-rare. Every serious DXer has Sable at least on a few bands and modes. Very very few need them for an all-time new one since CY0 is on every few years. So they will have far fewer callers and the operator needs only a small range of frequencies once the initial rush is over. I would wager than CY0P, on SSB, will be either simplex or on one split frequency in a few days. I don't need CY0 anywhere or for anything other than a 2013 Marathon point (which I just bagged tonight on 40 CW), so I won't be in those pileups at all--other than 160, cuz I love working interesting stuff on 160!

Now, look at Wake next week. It hasn't been seriously activated in over 12 years and will be an all time new one for tens of thousands of hams, me included. Let's say 40,000 individual stations will be trying to reach them at the same time from around the world. Let's be conservative and say 10,000 will be calling during the day on Saturday and Sunday (i.e. when "weekend warrior" DXers are home and available to play on the radio). How do you propose 10,000 callers make themselves heard all at once? How do you propose the DX operators on Wake will be able to keep a high rate going if not for a wide split?

Their job is to hear guys like me calling, pull my signal out and log me. My job is to find the frequency that they're listening on and time my transmission so that they hear me at the right time on the exactly right frequency. 10,000+ others will be doing the same thing--and probably a lot more than that. That's the reason why splits can get big.

But as I said in my earlier post, a truly good DX operator knows when the split has become too big and he/she just bounces around within certain limits, or slides up to 15 then starts sliding down, or goes up 15 then starts at up five and keeps going. Some guys even play games with the pileup and every few calls will say something like "two eighty four" instead of saying "up 5 to 15" on 20m, for example, meaning to the astute operator, he'll quickly punch in 14.284 and who knows...he might get in the log.

You must spread large groups of callers out. There is simply no other way to work down a large pile. Split in contests is awful and confusing as hell and I wish guys wouldn't do it.

Logged

www.facebook.com/W2IRT
Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll.
WA4053SWL
Member

Posts: 174


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2013, 07:06:51 PM »

Anyway, thank to all wiser for dispel my doubts. I repeat my apologies for my ignorance, promising to give me fifty lashes for it Grin
Logged
N2NL
Member

Posts: 363




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2013, 07:13:35 PM »

Is a 10KC wide split too much?  Depends on the situation.  Some operators have a more difficult time with pileups, and need more space.  Some times the band is open to several regions at once, resulting in a much denser pileup, requiring the wider split.  It's a very fluid thing and impossible to define something that is acceptable for all situations.

I'd say in the bigger pileups there may be a couple hundred calling... I would highly doubt the number is in the several thousands, except in the case of a very rare entity.  Lets say for argument that CY0P has a hundred stations calling in a 10KC wide split.  If those hundred stations were all rag chewing with each other, giving 2KC separation for QRM, that would require 100KC of spectrum (50 QSOs in progress).  When you look at it this way, that 10KC is not being wasted.  There are a hundred guys all getting enjoyment in that 10KC, granted some more than others (depending on whether you work him or not).

CY0 is a really tough one out in the Western Pacific and Asia.  I've not even heard the current CY0 expedition... fortunately I have CY0 from previous expeditions (several are the same operators) so I'm not stressing it.  The CY9 expedition last year was a different story... needed for an ATNO and never heard them once.  The magnetic north pole can make things very ugly on the path into the far NE of NA.

73, Dave KH2/N2NL

Logged
VK3HJ
Member

Posts: 677




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 04:34:26 AM »

I believe there are situations where the split just gets ridiculous and does take up too much of the band. There were a couple of DXpeditions a bit under a year ago where the split was more than 100 kHz of 15 m. The split ran from 21200 to around 21350 or so. Similarly, on 17 m, where the pile ran from 18150 to well above 18170. Yes, out of band!
As DXpedition operator, one must spread the pile, to keep a decent rate going, but one must also keep control of the range of the spread.
I'm going to have my work cut out for me on Mellish Reef next year!
73,
Luke VK3HJ
Logged
AF3Y
Member

Posts: 3849




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 06:04:03 AM »

SOLUTION to bandwidth problem??  Just work CWCool

73, Gene AF3Y
Logged
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 2679




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 03:06:46 PM »

You are wrong, George. In many cases it's not 100 or 200 stations calling, it's 10,000 or 20,000 stations calling!


Yep for most dxpeditions most people don't realize this because they only hear the NA and SA and some EU so they think thats the extent of who is calling.  They don't hear most of the EU, none of the JA's, none of the VK's and ZL's etc.
Also in NA they only hear stations in a few states, they can't hear 70% of the country because most are either in bad locations (relative to them) or the stations are running 100 watts and a dipole.
Logged
K0HB
Member

Posts: 13




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 02:06:43 PM »

10KC wide split isn't very excessive.  It's a week day, and it's not like the band is crowded.

Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!