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Author Topic: Hamstick, Hi-Q or Tarheel 40 or 75  (Read 20405 times)
K0BG
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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2012, 03:11:00 PM »

David, I do my best to be respectful. You tell me you're an engineer, so I guess I'm supposed to believe that you do. I am too, but I'm not an electrical engineer, or a mechanical engineer. I'm a civil engineer, and I have a license to prove it. But I keep getting statements made by you that just don't add up, and I've begin to wonder. For example, your antenna-related, quantitative analyses referencing the number of DX stations worked. That's not all. What's more, I'm still trying to get my head around your boast of a couple of years ago about the patents you hold. In any case, I'm skeptical.
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WX7G
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« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2012, 04:45:38 PM »

Alan,

I had wondered what your background was. It is obvious you've studied the subject of antennas but I suspected you had not taken an Electromagnetics course.

I'm always exploring antennas (as a hobby) and looking at them in different ways. I welcome my ideas being challenged. It helps me to see things from different angles and refine or even change my ideas. I'm presently working toward writing an article on HF mobile antenna theory and simulation.
  
Dave WX7G, NARTE Certified EMC Engineer

   Remove the adjectives and the real substance of a technical presentation is revealed.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 05:08:24 PM by WX7G » Logged
N0JY
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« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2012, 09:39:47 PM »

Hi Nick,
I used a borrowed 20 meter hamstick style antenna on a triple magnet mount set atop my Buick Rendezvous for a trip from Texas to Illinois in the spring of 2012.  My rig was my FT-817 with a Heil headset/mic.  With 5 watts then, I worked Canary Island, Honduras and around the U.S.  It was not set up to be a DX dream nor did I QSO the entire trip.  I threw it in the car to try it out and see how I liked HF mobile.
So my results are subjective, and I have nothing to compare to.  It worked well for me, I was happy.  I liked it enough to buy an FT-857D which I will use in my car and boat as well.  I too am considering which antenna type to use now, and the Rendezvous has drawbacks for anything mounted on the bumper, the antenna being right next to the body for much of the antenna length.  I was going to just buy some hamsticks or hamstick style antennas since they worked well enough and could be interchanged from car to boat and given what I have read so far on several sites, I don't see a reason not to do that.  It's also at least $300 cheaper than a screwdriver antenna, and since I won't be mobile forever I don't see an immediate need to change bands on the fly.  Rest/pit stops serves well enough to swap out a hamstick.
That's my current leanings anyway, but still looking at the info because I won't be mobiling for a month or two at best.  This thread did leave me with the impression that there was a lot of discussion but not many answers to your question, so I thought I'd toss in my subjective review.  "The best antenna is the one that works for you" or something like that!   Smiley
73
Jerry
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AC4RD
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« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2012, 03:59:24 AM »

It worked well for me, I was happy. ...  I was going to just buy some hamsticks or hamstick style antennas since they worked well enough and could be interchanged from car to boat and given what I have read so far on several sites, I don't see a reason not to do that.  It's also at least $300 cheaper than a screwdriver antenna, and since I won't be mobile forever I don't see an immediate need to change bands on the fly.  Rest/pit stops serves well enough to swap out a hamstick.

Jerry, I'm in the minority on this, but I often tell people that hamsticks or similar are a great way to get started.  They're cheap and convenient, they work well for 20 and up, and you can always sell them once you are ready for a different antenna system.  I used 'sticks for years; even now I'm using a homebrewed single-band system with Hustler resonators and homebrewed cap hats.  This works great for me, and the "no changing bands on the fly" isn't a problem in my book.   I'd say your leanings are sound--and even if you change your mind later, it's a great way to get started.  73 GL!
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W5WSS
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« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2012, 06:45:37 AM »

Dave, For an elevated 4-slope radial symmetrical series fed 1/4 wave antenna 12-13ft above average ground isolated and above a carbody by about 5ft such as yours and fed with 100 watts looking back through my notes a ballpark objective goal for surface wave Field strength downrange would be 285mv/m at 1km.@100watts input.

That quantitative objective is obviously very optimistic.

This is sooo debateable but anyhow, what I was looking for in the measurements was a bump upwards that opposed the estimated distance attenuation this bump is a strong indication of the radials contribution+the semi conductive hump of carbody and the coupling to earth surface below averaged,(.IF) the measurement is consistent about  the semi circle downrange.
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M6GOM
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« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2012, 07:41:40 AM »


Jerry, I'm in the minority on this, but I often tell people that hamsticks or similar are a great way to get started.  They're cheap and convenient, they work well for 20 and up, and you can always sell them once you are ready for a different antenna system. 

With them using a 3/8 mount, if you do a proper job of the installation with the bonding etc etc then upgrading to such as the Little Tarheel II or 75 is simply a matter of screwing it to where the Hamstick sat and running the motor control leads.
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AC4RD
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« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2012, 09:14:54 AM »

With (hamsticks) using a 3/8 mount, if you do a proper job of the installation with the bonding etc etc then upgrading to such as the Little Tarheel II or 75 is simply a matter of screwing ...

You know, I *do* use 3/8x24 for HF and VHF/UHF on the car; it's really convenient to be able to switch any antenna to any mount.  (I've got three mounts on my car right now.)   But I don't *want* a screwdriver of any kind--it's just not for me.  Expensive and complicated is not what I want, and I'm only on 20-10 plus 6, 2, and 440 from the car, so I don't need the supposed increase in efficiency of a screwdriver on lower bands.  My system ( http://people.duke.edu/~kuzen001/ac4rdmobile.htm ) works well, and experimenting with changes is easy and cheap.   A lot of people don't seem to understand me, but this setup suits my needs perfectly. [shrug]
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N0JY
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« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2012, 10:02:19 AM »

Hi Ken,

I appreciate the input and I just checked your website too, I like that.  More options to think about!  The back of the Rendezvous is similar to the back of yours.  Thanks!

Jerry
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KF7NUA
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Posts: 153




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« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2012, 05:40:47 PM »

Hi Nick,
I used a borrowed 20 meter hamstick style antenna on a triple magnet mount set atop my Buick Rendezvous for a trip from Texas to Illinois in the spring of 2012.  My rig was my FT-817 with a Heil headset/mic.  With 5 watts then, I worked Canary Island, Honduras and around the U.S.  It was not set up to be a DX dream nor did I QSO the entire trip.  I threw it in the car to try it out and see how I liked HF mobile.
So my results are subjective, and I have nothing to compare to.  It worked well for me, I was happy.  I liked it enough to buy an FT-857D which I will use in my car and boat as well.  I too am considering which antenna type to use now, and the Rendezvous has drawbacks for anything mounted on the bumper, the antenna being right next to the body for much of the antenna length.  I was going to just buy some hamsticks or hamstick style antennas since they worked well enough and could be interchanged from car to boat and given what I have read so far on several sites, I don't see a reason not to do that.  It's also at least $300 cheaper than a screwdriver antenna, and since I won't be mobile forever I don't see an immediate need to change bands on the fly.  Rest/pit stops serves well enough to swap out a hamstick.
That's my current leanings anyway, but still looking at the info because I won't be mobiling for a month or two at best.  This thread did leave me with the impression that there was a lot of discussion but not many answers to your question, so I thought I'd toss in my subjective review.  "The best antenna is the one that works for you" or something like that!   Smiley
73
Jerry

Hi jerry - yep I still monitor this thread as a daily read so your imput is wellcomed as with the rest of the posters.
I know Dave and Alan have been chewing at each others throat but there has been some info I did pick up from it!
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WX7G
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Posts: 6130




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« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2012, 11:37:24 AM »

KF7NUA,
you are right about the friction around here. I'm an electrical engineer and of course I work with many other electrical engineers. As such I work with open minded people who must quantify their statements. Feelings about circuits/antennas/etc. and hand waving are simply not part of the environment. Every design and every statement made must be backed up mathematically and proven to a dozen other engineers. We deal in numbers and not adjectives. So, to argue antennas with antenna amateurs (in every sense of the word) who do not have even a rudimentary grasp of antenna fundamentals, yet think they do - and who are close minded - is the real challenge. My time is better spent writing articles about antennas to educate those who are open to learning.   
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WX7G
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« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2012, 01:15:22 PM »

The sticking point here is lossy ground. In the world of amateur radio "ground" in imbued with magical (bad) properties that cannot be known by mere mortals. But it need not be viewed as a magical medium that defies quantitative analysis. It is a lossy dielectric and lossy dielectrics are well understood. They are analyzed as part of transmission lines and antennas on a daily basis. Lossy dielectrics can be analyzed mathematically and modeled using several different 3-D field solvers such as NEC and SONNET. So to quantify the performance of an antenna near the lossy dielectric we call earth is a simple matter.





« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 01:20:36 PM by WX7G » Logged
KF7NUA
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Posts: 153




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« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2012, 10:10:53 PM »

KF7NUA,
you are right about the friction around here. I'm an electrical engineer and of course I work with many other electrical engineers. As such I work with open minded people who must quantify their statements. Feelings about circuits/antennas/etc. and hand waving are simply not part of the environment. Every design and every statement made must be backed up mathematically and proven to a dozen other engineers. We deal in numbers and not adjectives. So, to argue antennas with antenna amateurs (in every sense of the word) who do not have even a rudimentary grasp of antenna fundamentals, yet think they do - and who are close minded - is the real challenge. My time is better spent writing articles about antennas to educate those who are open to learning.   


No need to explain, I am almost to the point of selling my Hi-Q and going to a Tarheel 40A HP because of a few of the points you made!
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WN2C
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Posts: 466




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« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2012, 06:54:07 PM »

Go with a Scorpion and you won't look back.  Best built screwdriver on the market. I got one in late October, got it mounted on my truck.  I get guys on 40 that ask me how much power I am running and they are surprised to hear... barefoot.  They work very well but you do need a very stout mount.  Do your homework and look around at them all.  If you don't want to be replacing the screwdriver in a few years or replacing parts, then go with the one that has a lifetime warranty.  Oh and by the way, I ran into a guy locally that bought one in 07' and the owner of Scorpion is replacing parts (an upgrade actually) that were not on the ones he sold in 07 - he says for free.  So...there you go.

Yea, I may sound a little prejudiced, but its not that....I am impressed with it.

de wn2c  Rick
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KT0DD
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Posts: 278




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« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2012, 11:05:37 AM »

Aside from all the engineering discussions...which I respect... I look at things from a simple point of view. I have always had good luck with Hi-Q although the bigger ones get a little pricey. A larger coil should have better Q and Charlie describes this on his website. He uses top of the line test equipment to check his findings. The military buys alot from him.The best thing I like about the Hi-Q is the physical length doesn't change with band changes since the coil is shorted internally, not externally. I've had reasonably good performance from my Hi-Q's in the past.

I have no experience with the Scorpion, but I hear they're good. However, they too are shorted externally and change length with tuning. It's just something I don't like.

73, Todd-KT0DD
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KF7NUA
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Posts: 153




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« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2012, 11:17:33 AM »

Aside from all the engineering discussions...which I respect... I look at things from a simple point of view. I have always had good luck with Hi-Q although the bigger ones get a little pricey. A larger coil should have better Q and Charlie describes this on his website. He uses top of the line test equipment to check his findings. The military buys alot from him.The best thing I like about the Hi-Q is the physical length doesn't change with band changes since the coil is shorted internally, not externally. I've had reasonably good performance from my Hi-Q's in the past.

I have no experience with the Scorpion, but I hear they're good. However, they too are shorted externally and change length with tuning. It's just something I don't like.

73, Todd-KT0DD

I do agree with you on the physical length not changing but my problem is not "not liking the Hi-Q", but not being able to mount the Hi-Q. I have had numerous emails back and forth with Woody at Hi-Q and he even says that trying to mount my Hi-Q antenna on my truck is not going to be easy and it will be a very compromised antenna at best. And as far as a Scorpion, it would be more of a challenge to mount it compared to a Hi-Q.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 11:19:42 AM by KF7NUA » Logged
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