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Author Topic: Increase the cost of using OQRS?  (Read 3491 times)
N2RJ
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 09:50:00 AM »

I'm not sure what to do about the donation situation. I belive NCDXF etc wants to make sure "amateur spirit" is not violated and there is always a free option.  

But, as noted above, the cost to put on an expedition is certainly not "a free option".

73, Gene AF3Y

Certainly. But NCDXF and other DX organizations are a major part of funding, are they not? So do they refuse the terms and conditions and forfeit the donations from the large organizations, or accept that there will be more than a few freeloaders but get a guaranteed donation from DX organizations? I believe this is where they strike the balance.
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WS3N
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 10:32:31 AM »

QSL policy should be no bureau, no free LoTW. The appropriate minimum gets a card and LoTW upload. State that up-front when asking for support. If potential sponsors don't like it then there's no DXpedition. This is not compensation for QSOs (which are still free), it's covering the substantial cost of the event. It's ridiculous to think that the individuals on the expedition should shoulder the financial burden so everyone else can have fun.
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AF3Y
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 10:43:14 AM »

TAKE A LOOK at this from your friendly USPS.  IRCs are no more. 

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?371180-Outbound-International-Reply-Coupons-Discontinued

Gene AF3Y
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K3STX
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 10:46:34 AM »

QSL policy should be no bureau, no free LoTW.

I agree 100%. Their expedition, their rules.

paul
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N2RJ
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 11:21:50 AM »

QSL policy should be no bureau, no free LoTW. The appropriate minimum gets a card and LoTW upload. State that up-front when asking for support. If potential sponsors don't like it then there's no DXpedition. This is not compensation for QSOs (which are still free), it's covering the substantial cost of the event. It's ridiculous to think that the individuals on the expedition should shoulder the financial burden so everyone else can have fun.


Then they'll end up forfeiting the funding from organizations such as NCDXF. They don't want that, and they shouldn't have to forfeit it.

I disagree that you should have to pay to get a QSL. To me that is not in the amateur spirit.

In life in general there are freeloaders. There will always be. Best not to worry about it.
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WS3N
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2012, 02:39:23 PM »

QSL policy should be no bureau, no free LoTW. The appropriate minimum gets a card and LoTW upload. State that up-front when asking for support. If potential sponsors don't like it then there's no DXpedition. This is not compensation for QSOs (which are still free), it's covering the substantial cost of the event. It's ridiculous to think that the individuals on the expedition should shoulder the financial burden so everyone else can have fun.


Then they'll end up forfeiting the funding from organizations such as NCDXF. They don't want that, and they shouldn't have to forfeit it.

I disagree that you should have to pay to get a QSL. To me that is not in the amateur spirit.

In life in general there are freeloaders. There will always be. Best not to worry about it.

OK, so if NCDXF, etc. don't agree then they don't go. Then we'll see what it's really worth to the DXing community. It seems that most people take it for granted..

Actually, I would rather have it your way. I'm just saying the present model is unsustainable. (Gee, sounds like the SS/Medicare arguments.)

The problem is not whether a card should be free. The problem is that proceeds from cards are used to help pay for other expenses. The cost for a card should be purely S&H. No part of the DXpedition funding should depend on QSLs. What if propagation turns out to be terrible, or the trip is cut short? The vast majority of people will never send anything if they don't make a QSO.
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K9NW
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2012, 03:40:52 PM »

OQRS, whatever amount, is a very good thing.  Throwing a little extra in with a QSL request is also a very good thing.

What usually gets lost in discussions like this is the fact that that a very large portion of DXpedition expenses are payable upfront, before anyone has even left home.  (You don't charter a boat with the promise that you'll settle up after you're back in the home port.)

What's the answer?  Probably the best option right now is to generously support DX foundations so that they are able to make substantial, upfront contributions to future DXpeditions, especially those that incur the most expense.
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N2RJ
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 07:38:25 PM »


OK, so if NCDXF, etc. don't agree then they don't go. Then we'll see what it's really worth to the DXing community. It seems that most people take it for granted..

Actually, I would rather have it your way. I'm just saying the present model is unsustainable. (Gee, sounds like the SS/Medicare arguments.)

The problem is not whether a card should be free. The problem is that proceeds from cards are used to help pay for other expenses. The cost for a card should be purely S&H. No part of the DXpedition funding should depend on QSLs. What if propagation turns out to be terrible, or the trip is cut short? The vast majority of people will never send anything if they don't make a QSO.

The problem IS whether or not a card should be free. This thread is about increasing the required minimum donation for OQRS direct, and it ends up bordering on paying for QSL/QSO. I don't mind donating one bit but I don't think it should be required. I DO think that hams who get a new one should pony up, but not because they need to to get a confirmation.
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NU1O
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 11:55:56 PM »

I don't mind increasing my contributions a little to make up for the missing amount from Europe. I always kick in over and above the OQRS costs. If others aren't, that just means I have to step up my donations a little. Sort of a "Marshall Plan" for DX funding to help our friends around the world.

Tim N3QE.

What happens when we need a Marshall Plan? Do you think any of the beneficiaries of the original Marshall Plan, or any of the countries we've helped after the Plan, such as Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, will be wiling to help the US out?

73,

Chris/NU1O

« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 12:20:53 AM by NU1O » Logged
NU1O
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2012, 11:57:41 PM »

K0IZ, you imply that raising the fee will improve European participation.

That's a very good point. If they are using the buro now to circumvent costs they'd have even more of a reason to use the buro if the OQRS rates go up.
73,

Chris/NU1O
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NU1O
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2012, 12:36:28 AM »


To the nub of it:  Almost all of the individual contributions came from NA hams.  Almost nothing from Europe.

I did not see the presentation on expedition costs but the GDP of Europe is equal to that of the US, and due to the Socialist policies that exist in Europe things are much more balanced out than they are here in the USA. There simply is no excuse for the Europeans not to be contributing the same as we are. The same applies to the rich oil States and Japan.

I think since so much is done for the citizens of Europe by their governments charity does not play the same roll it does here in the States. That's just a theory on my part and I'd love to read some comments by Europeans as to why their citizens contribute so little to these expeditions.

Can K0IZ, or somebody else who has the facts, kindly give me the breakdown as to where the expedition contributions are coming from?  I will guess at least 75% to 80% comes from the US but I'd like to see the actual numbers. Thanks!

73,

Chris/NU1O

« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 12:40:46 AM by NU1O » Logged
NU4B
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Posts: 2329




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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 04:09:34 AM »


To the nub of it:  Almost all of the individual contributions came from NA hams.  Almost nothing from Europe.

I did not see the presentation on expedition costs but the GDP of Europe is equal to that of the US, and due to the Socialist policies that exist in Europe things are much more balanced out than they are here in the USA. There simply is no excuse for the Europeans not to be contributing the same as we are. The same applies to the rich oil States and Japan.

I think since so much is done for the citizens of Europe by their governments charity does not play the same roll it does here in the States. That's just a theory on my part and I'd love to read some comments by Europeans as to why their citizens contribute so little to these expeditions.

Can K0IZ, or somebody else who has the facts, kindly give me the breakdown as to where the expedition contributions are coming from?  I will guess at least 75% to 80% comes from the US but I'd like to see the actual numbers. Thanks!

73,

Chris/NU1O



Chris,
 You can find the presentation @:

http://dx-world.net/2012/dxpedition-costs/
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AJ4RW
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Posts: 568




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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 05:50:55 AM »

Quote
Simple. Change the grant rules from organizations like NCDXF, etc, and allow DXpeditions to not accept bureau cards if they so desire.

This still puzzles me.  Why would any organization put such a stipulation as that on any dxpedition?  Could someone clarify the reasoning for this.  Since funding is a major concern of any dxpedition, then any creative way increase revenue would certainly help with the bottom line.  No bureau or free LOTW makes good economic sense!!  No free rides.  The only downside I could see to this approach is a possible reduction in the number of Q's but I think that would be negligible.
Randy
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N2RJ
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2012, 07:26:24 AM »

Quote
Simple. Change the grant rules from organizations like NCDXF, etc, and allow DXpeditions to not accept bureau cards if they so desire.

This still puzzles me.  Why would any organization put such a stipulation as that on any dxpedition?  Could someone clarify the reasoning for this.  Since funding is a major concern of any dxpedition, then any creative way increase revenue would certainly help with the bottom line.  No bureau or free LOTW makes good economic sense!!  No free rides.  The only downside I could see to this approach is a possible reduction in the number of Q's but I think that would be negligible.
Randy

My guess is "ham spirit." They want as many to work the new entity as possible and when there are no free QSL options some may be discouraged.

We're not talking hard core DXers but maybe the new guy who works his first rare one and gets all excited, only to find out he needs to pay 5 bucks for a card.
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NU4B
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Posts: 2329




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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 09:46:36 AM »

Quote
Simple. Change the grant rules from organizations like NCDXF, etc, and allow DXpeditions to not accept bureau cards if they so desire.

This still puzzles me.  Why would any organization put such a stipulation as that on any dxpedition?  Could someone clarify the reasoning for this.  Since funding is a major concern of any dxpedition, then any creative way increase revenue would certainly help with the bottom line.  No bureau or free LOTW makes good economic sense!!  No free rides.  The only downside I could see to this approach is a possible reduction in the number of Q's but I think that would be negligible.
Randy

There was a time when stations in some select countries could only QSL via the buro. They couldn't send money through the mail if they wanted to, and they didn't have it anyway. The buro system is still popular, especially in EU and JA. Many times you will see EU or JA expeditions that say QSL via the buro and don't even mention direct. When the buro was set up it was a different time. Even with today's economic problems many in the US, EU, and JA are far better off financially than decades ago. But it still works and works well. Maybe not for the "I want it now" society we have created, but it works. And it still gives those without alot of money or on a limited income a way to participate.
 Not that charging for QSLs would ever make a DXpedition profitable, but you also have to consider the appearance of a DXpedition for profit. There's a very fine line there. Offering a way to receive a QSL without a charge nixes that argument.
 Then there's tradition - The final courtesy of a QSO is a QSL. (a little weak considering today's 100,000 QSO expeditions.)

 I think the best answer is transparency with expedition budgets and finances. It wouldn't be that hard to publish a budget, post it, and say "Here it is fellas, if you want it - ante up".
 
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