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Author Topic: decoders  (Read 8415 times)
M0JHA
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Posts: 646




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« on: December 15, 2012, 03:42:07 AM »

Is it me or are there more and more people wanting to use cw without actually taking any trouble to learn the code  ?
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 10:02:56 AM »

When you don't have the will power and the perseverance to learn the code proficient, and you still want to be a real ham, you can simulate that by using a decoder. Can't you?

PSK31 is much better for machine decoding, but that has not the stature of CW.

So the decoding guys are just the appliance operators that are the wannabees, they are an additional complementary group.

 
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KC2NYU
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 05:01:27 AM »

I have taught myself CW and can now copy and send 15 wpm, not up there with some of you veterans but my speed is increasing. I have gotten to that point by using these programs that you are dumping on. I have used CW decoders to help me learn to send by copying what I am sending, getting characters correct and improving my spacing, and when I am trying to do a QSO with someone a lot faster then what I an copy to ensure a callsign is correct. I love the myriad of software programs available to the Ham radio community today and try as many of them as I can. I have tried all the CW Programs out and they have been instrumental in learning the code.
-- So get off your high horse about appliance operators, many of these programs have been used to train folks and helped keep CW alive.

73 Paul kc2nyu
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M0JHA
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 12:33:27 PM »

well done , you never know , keep practicing and you may be able to play like a real cw op one day when you throw the crutch away  Grin
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KH2G
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 06:30:58 PM »

Paul, you have a good idea in using the decoder to improve your fist. I think there are a number of the guys out there that might be shocked if they tried listening to themselves via a decoder. -hi
73
Dick KH2G
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N4WVE
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Posts: 33




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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »

Well, Billy! You must be psychic! I have yet to engage in a CW QSO and instantly know there is a decoder involved. Do you get like a burning sensation or something?
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Greg N4WVE
M0JHA
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Posts: 646




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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 01:51:32 AM »

a constant couple of second delay in the station coming back whilst they finish reading is a good indication . another is crap code being sent because they have never learnt what good code sounds like as they have simply read off a decoder. My only point was lots seem to want to use the code but immedietly need to know of a good decoder before even trying without or at the very first hint of effort needing to be applied. I can understand someone using one to see how well they may be sending but that's another matter..
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 02:23:28 PM »

a constant couple of second delay in the station coming back whilst they finish reading is a good indication . another is crap code being sent because they have never learnt what good code sounds like as they have simply read off a decoder.

Oh boy, when I switch over from receiving to transmitting I have to decouple the antenna from the transmitter and couple it to the receiver.  Always takes some time. No QSK here, working on it., but not right now. Too many plans to do for a slow and always tired old man.

However good code sending is hardly an indication to find out, because they often sent with a keyboard and macro keys with call qth rest 5nn pwr and some code to identify their appliance, which I never understand.

However when they copy my call as pa0dlas or pa0blas or pa0dlah I am pretty sure they copy me on the part_of_a_pig way and not with a decoding device.

Furthermore a keyboard is normally not able to generate dit daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah dit as often done to cry out that the msg you just sent was received in good order.

And yes, when they sent as the final kiss not dit  dit but ditdahditdahditdah  ditdahditdahditdah you know for sure that they sent the two kissing dits with a keyboard.






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N4WVE
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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2013, 03:43:48 PM »

And this is important why? If it bothers you so much, just don't answer. It's better to receive no response to my CQ than receive one from someone who has nothing better to do with his time than denigrate others. These are the people that almost caused the death of CW. You should thank Jesus every day that any new operator CHOOSES to try and learn cw and even to use it. How they get there means absolutely nothing. I think any new operator should use whatever means necessary to achieve their goal. Too many curmudgeons with too much time on their hands...so sad.
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Greg N4WVE
PA0BLAH
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2013, 04:21:10 PM »

And this is important why?

Personally I don't think so. When somebody sends with a keyboard I can copy higher speeds than some banana boat swing or Lake Erie swingers with a vibroplex produce. 

In general sending is not a severe problem, it is receiving that takes a lot of time to learn proficient.

However generally known is that copy by head is possible for weak signals, with qrm/qrn, where  decoders completely fail, so the chance of completing a qso with one or both parties using decoders is a lot less.

When you use a decoder just to avoid learning the code, you are better of with PSK31,  that mode is much more suited for guys not planning to learn the code.



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N4WVE
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Posts: 33




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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2013, 04:38:45 PM »

Obviously you can't plan to rely on just a decoder to play with cw, but for those just learning cw, it can be a useful aid for the learning process. Take that away and there is no reason to even try. There no cw requirement for licensing and no govt agencies use it, so why make these silly points so even more people will feel stigmatized for for not doing it "your way"? It's a hobby for God's sake...it's not that important.
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Greg N4WVE
M0JHA
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Posts: 646




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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 01:59:43 AM »

The point isn't those using one to genuinly aid learning but those wanting one because they can't be bothered or it looks too much like hard work to do it without.. The problem arises NOT with people who think others should put some effort in BUT people like yourself stating why shouldn't people use a crutch when the reality is it's not that difficult to learn , yes it takes effort but that's something people are less willing to use nowdays ..
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PA0BLAH
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 02:18:12 AM »

Obviously you can't plan to rely on just a decoder to play with cw, but for those just learning cw, it can be a useful aid for the learning process. Take that away and there is no reason to even try. There no cw requirement for licensing and no govt agencies use it, so why make these silly points so even more people will feel stigmatized for for not doing it "your way"? It's a hobby for God's sake...it's not that important.

Right, I agree, I appreciate your opinion, it is a hobby and looks like not to be important.

However, a guy that feels stigmatized by this (not mine) thread. and feels demoralized by it for trying to learn CW, is just the guy that better can't start at all, and use a decoder till another toy is passing by to try another mode. He will find out PSK31 is much more suited for him. So stigmatizing is a way of saving time for him, that he should waste otherwise, by trying something for a while (dutch: for a blue Monday) and finding out he doesn't have the perseverance.

You have minority groups, and a lot of members get their self esteem from being or feeling to be a member of such a group. As a rule it are less intellectually gifted people. May be they identify themself by the local soccer club, and feel good when that club wins a match without doing anything else then buying their merchandise, and shouting their lungs out of their throat during a match. They get at least a part if not all of their self esteem from  the social clustering.

So, you have motorbikers, when your only hobby is a motorbike, and you have to spend the day  with some odd job like cleaning greasy staircases and toilets in Anchorage, and you have no other personal interests, and saved a lot of money to buy the best bike ever,  and to pimp it up to make it a custom design, and you join a bikers club, that makes you feel to be someone.
So you start stigmatizing guys in cars, that have no bike, because they want easy transportation, in all weather conditions, they can't even ride a bike, and in the group they are stigmatized as being pedal bin drivers.

Do you really think that there is any pedal bin driver that want to ride a bike for fun in good weather, is demoralised by those statement makers?

Don't think so.

My personal idea is that it is not a way to learn the code by watching  a decoder. Decoders can help copy by head in order to prevent strain. Strain is wrong, when you feel easy and relaxed the code enters in your mind as Jesus words in a shaker.
http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ANP-12709202-568x378.jpg
So it takes away the strain because when you missed something you can look at the decoder. It is the wrong way to start with a decoder.

So best thing to do, when you want to breed CW guys, is pointing to the required perseverance, just like the DoD collects guys for heavy military tasks, by pointing to the severe physical and mental requirements and
when you are sufficiently experienced and master copying the code yourself, directing to the right way to learn and saying loud and clear what is the wrong way.

And yes, without government requirements there is sure a good reason to learn the code, you can make low power connections over long distances, like every QRP adept can tell you. Backpackers with a small sun powered trx can safe their life with it. Ask preppers. Above that in contesting and dxpeditions a lot more contacts per unit of time are possible. You don't have to spell "A_of_Alfa" "B_of_Bravo" "Cof_fee"

Rescue amateur service should require it to become a member, they don't because then there are hardly members to manage and when managing is your hobby , you have to drop that essential requirement for preppers and emergency ham radio organisations.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 03:05:21 AM by PA0BLAH » Logged
WB3CQM
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Posts: 117




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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 04:42:27 AM »

When you don't have the will power and the perseverance to learn the code proficient, and you still want to be a real ham, you can simulate that by using a decoder. Can't you?

PSK31 is much better for machine decoding, but that has not the stature of CW.

So the decoding guys are just the appliance operators that are the wannabees, they are an additional complementary group.

 

I very much agree with what you say  Bob . But the part about being a real ham . To me being a real ham has nothing to do with being a Morse Code operator . To me a real ham for one example is a ham that when I ask for help comes to my house and helps me with difficult electronic project .  His back ground in electronics is above and beyond what I could ever know. Dave  learned the code to pass his advance exam but put the code key away for ever. Just because he has no interest in Mores code does not change that Dave is a real ham. My self I became a ham to be a code operator . I have no interest in electronics and home building radios and the like, period.

I say to the new ham . Do what you love to do in the hobby and have enjoyment . Please do NOT qrm the cw dx pile ups. Use the best decoder you can buy and use it  if you have fun .

But I do NOT believe you can learn cw by using a decoder. It may help to use one to learn to send . But I have my doubts on that also. There is nothing wrong with using a keyboard to send . But please if you type ahead use the space bar.

PSK is better mode for the new ham that does not want to put much effort into learning code.

I know NO Dutch but the link you posted with the guy wearing the  T shirt says "Ask me why I follow Jesus " I used a decoder to learn that. I have a translator that I can translate over 50 language. Except it does NOT work on Biblical Greek ! So I study Greek and it is not easy.

 Most Decoders do not work to good in qrm / qrn / qsb/  dx pile and they have no prestige and are mostly only a toy. Except CW Skimmer. I think  MPR40 is the best decoder.
BUT CW Decoders are here to stay . I also believe cw decoder ops are NOT hear to stay. Because decoders can not beat the better cw ops. 

I think  the first requirement to be a Morse Code Operator is you must love it more than any mode ! my 2 cents

To the OP M0JHA - I think you break the rules of your cw club by posting this thread , also my 2 cents. I doubt this thread will promote good will. But to the new ham > Bob gives good advice <

73 JIM
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N4WVE
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Posts: 33




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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 04:43:20 AM »

OK, FB on all...I've had my say and now I'm done. This has used 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back, so I am moving on...good luck and God speed...73.
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Greg N4WVE
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