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Author Topic: ZL9HR money?  (Read 38798 times)
NU1O
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« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »

There is one major benefit that this airing of "dirty laundry" can bring:

From now on - EVERY DX-pedition should publish a full accounting of every penny taken in and where it was used as a spreadhseet posted on their DX-ped website.

It would also have a list of the actions the team will take regarding what happens when they fall short - break even or have an "overage" as far as money is concerned.

In other words, what N1DG called for - which is Full "Transparency".

Call it the DX-er Financial Code of Conduct . . . .

When you come right down to it when an expedition accepts donations from the public what you basically have is a partnership.  If I can buy one share in Microsoft at ~ $27 and I am entitled to receive quarterly and annual reports from a corporation with a market capitalization of about $250 billion one can make a very good case that anytime amateur community funds are utilized in an expedition there should be a financial statement made public.

I believe in full financial disclosure by expeditions which accepted donor money.

Calling for full financial transparency is one thing but getting the expeditions to make public the information is entirely different matter.  The only way I can see it happening is if a big donor like the Northern California DX Foundation said they would no longer make donations to expeditions unless the financials were going to be made public within a reasonable time after the expedition was over.

We individual donors simply do not have the clout to force expeditions to make public a financial report unless we all acted together and restricted our donations to only expeditions which state right from the beginning the financial statement is going to be made public. Since this group can't seem to agree on anything that is not likely to happen.

73,

Chris/NU1O
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 05:10:06 PM by NU1O » Logged
KY6R
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2012, 04:19:46 PM »

We individual donors simply do not have the clout to force expeditions to make public a financial report unless we all acted together and restricted our donations to only expeditions which state right from the beginning the financial statement is going to be made public. Since this group can't seem to agree on anything that is not likely to happen.

If only 100 hams who actually donate $100 or more to DX-peditions join forces and demand financial transparency and better yet - accountability - I am sure things will change.

It doesn't matter what people post on eHam or on DX World - what matters is what people donate money wise.

If you post on these social web sites but don't back it up with a serious donation - you are just farting into the wind . . .

Of course, there are tax issues too - so I am only starting a discussion here . . . .
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:31:16 PM by KY6R » Logged
NU1O
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« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2012, 04:35:40 PM »

We individual donors simply do not have the clout to force expeditions to make public a financial report unless we all acted together and restricted our donations to only expeditions which state right from the beginning the financial statement is going to be made public. Since this group can't seem to agree on anything that is not likely to happen.

If only 100 hams who actually donate $100 or more to DX-peditions join forces and demand financial transparency and better yet - accountability - I am sure things will change.

It doesn't matter what people post on eHam or on DX World - what matters is what people donate money wise.

If you post on these social web sites but don't back it up with a serious donation - you are just farting into the wind . . .

I will tell you what, let's try to get as many DXers as we can to demand full financial disclosure and we can all attach our call signs to a pledge, petition, or whatever we deem to call it.

I have just wrote I am for full disclosure and I'm willing to become a member and put my my money where my mouth is.

73,

Chris/NU1O


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HS0ZIB
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« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2012, 04:36:15 PM »

Quote
The only way I can see it happening is if a big donor like the Northern California DX Foundation said they would no longer make donations to expeditions unless the financials were going to be made public within a reasonable time after the expedition was over.

I agree 100% with this statement.  Any large donor should make the above a condition of their donation.

But it should not stop at just money.  I understand that in the case of this expedition, equipments were also donated - and in some cases - not even unpacked or used, due to logistical/time constraints.  (These equipments have been mentioned already in this thread).  What has happened to these equipments?  They were donated for the expedition, not for general club use in the future... (at least that is my understanding).

Simon
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NU1O
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« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2012, 05:02:33 PM »

I am sure they tried to work this problem out behind the scenes but were ignored and had no choice but to go public. It was obvious to me the member who started the Facebook post and the expedition member who wrote the post in this forum, John, 9M6XRO, were trying to rally public support for their cause.

I was the first to go out on a big limb and state I did not want my money going to a Hellenic-Australian Club. I also do not want the money sent to the NCDXF. That excess money belongs to the guys who paid the expenses out of their own pocket.

To date only one person backed me up.

Anybody with any brains can see what happened here and I think more of you ought to call for the money to be returned to its rightful owners. That means more donors demand their donation be returned to those team members who advanced the money.

9M6RO, is exactly right.  If the money is sent back to the NCDXF it will be an used by an entirely different set of people. It makes ZERO sense.

I realize many of you do not want to take any position and wish this whole matter would just go away but sometimes people need to stand up for what is right.

73,

Chris/NU1O

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KY6R
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« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2012, 05:19:22 PM »

NU1O: Chris - I like your ideas - a lot, and agree with your points. Count me in.
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W2IRT
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« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2012, 05:26:48 PM »

Perhaps one step in that direction is a more-or-less standard boilerplate DXpedition contract.
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AF3Y
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« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2012, 05:30:35 PM »


I was the first to go out on a big limb and state I did not want my money going to a Hellenic-Australian Club. I also do not want the money sent to the NCDXF. That excess money belongs to the guys who paid the expenses out of their own pocket.
73,
Chris/NU1O


Chris, for what its worth, I dont have a problem backing you on that. That is a common sense distribution of "Left-Over/Excess" funds, and unless specified otherwise, PRIOR to starting the expedition, would have been my expectation, should I have been a team member. It just seems like the right thing to do, UNLESS there were PRIOR agreements to the contrary.

73, Gene AF3Y
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 05:33:12 PM by AF3Y » Logged
AF3Y
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« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »

Just a quick question here...... Do expeditions USUALLY or NORMALLY have left over or excess funds? Perhaps some of you have been in a situation to know what is the usual distribution of those funds when they exist.

Paul, N6PSE, can you add something here? What do you guys usually do if there are left over monies Huh

73, Gene AF3Y

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NU1O
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« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2012, 06:05:16 PM »

NU1O: Chris - I like your ideas - a lot, and agree with your points. Count me in.

I appreciate that, Rich.  As of now I am no longer wishing to see San Francisco fall into the Pacific Ocean!  Wink

I read your post in the new topic you created - "Hey DX-ers! Vote with Your Donation Money!" - and it took all of one minute before what I predicted would happen did happen. Namely, John, AE5X, stating he would have none of the idea. That is John's prerogative. The idea can still take place without John but my sixth sense says there will be more Johns to follow. For the record, I am on board with your idea.

Rich, on the ZL9HR web site I count less than 300 individual donors.  Do you have hard data to back up your numbers of 100 guys donating $100? Is that an actual number from this or some other expedition, or is that your idea of what the amount of the donation and the number who would need to make it would need to be before there would be enough leverage by individual donors to demand financial statements?  IOW, with 10 Grand of donations one could say to a team, no disclosure, no $10,000?

$100 per expedition is a lot to expect from the average ham. I think I easily made over a dozen donations this year. I have made a few recent posts which stated I have only been back into the hobby for about two years now.  In January I will start making annual contributions to the NCDXF. I honestly never realized just how important they were until the past year or so. They really do have the power to dictate terms to their beneficiaries but I have no idea if they even believe in full financial transparency.

73,

Chris/NU1O

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VK3YP
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« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2012, 06:21:41 PM »

Maybe some of the commentators should organize and run a dxpedition and take on the risk that comes with it ?
ZL9HR was a success and organized by hard working people driven by a interest to activate a rare entity.
Agreements to the fee structure was agreed with all team members prior to the event.
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KY6R
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« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2012, 06:24:07 PM »

NU1O: Chris - I like your ideas - a lot, and agree with your points. Count me in.
Rich, on the ZL9HR web site I count less than 300 individual donors.  Do you have hard data to back up your numbers of 100 guys donating $100?

Its a hypothetical based on a really pessimistic number of donors that will soon be needed for ANY serious and even remotely rare dx-pedition to take place. Let me explain in full my thinking.

1) Heard Island 2014 will cost $1 million dollars. I am involved in this DX-pedition and have been working all summer on it. I won't quote what it will cost each participant to go - but it will make ZL9HR look like total childs play. Think about it - 100 donors at $100 is a drop in the bucket and is 10% of a 100K DX-pedition. Now - multiply that by 10 for Heard Island.

2) N1DG is a genius - to have posted his slide show on DX-pedition costs - especially to "southern oceans". Don has it nailed - and I know a lot of you know what I am talking about

3) I'm 53 years old, and sadly - considered a "young" DX-er who might some day aspire to lead a DX-pedition to something like Heard Island. I have been volunteering and donating at the level that I do to "test the waters". I can't go on any of these - not because I can't afford to pay $10K to go - but because I can't take the time off work. Heard Island will cost > 10K per participant - for sure. Now - why would I even bother to try to do what seems ridiculously impossible - for "just a hobby"?

4) The leaders of the most fabled and fantastic DX-peditions are all approaching 70 years old

Who will these guys pass the baton to? Will there be enough hams to support a $1 million dollar expedition? Will environmental concerns kill the DXCC program (I have a friend and DX mentor who believes so).

I don't mean to cast a pall on all of this - but when I see a DX-pedition get so shitty like ZL9HR has about expenses and stuff - and I know what a Heard Island will cost - I get Seriously Pessimistic . . . . I don't think everyone understands this.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 06:27:53 PM by KY6R » Logged
NU1O
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« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2012, 06:45:12 PM »


I was the first to go out on a big limb and state I did not want my money going to a Hellenic-Australian Club. I also do not want the money sent to the NCDXF. That excess money belongs to the guys who paid the expenses out of their own pocket.
73,
Chris/NU1O


Chris, for what its worth, I dont have a problem backing you on that. That is a common sense distribution of "Left-Over/Excess" funds, and unless specified otherwise, PRIOR to starting the expedition, would have been my expectation, should I have been a team member. It just seems like the right thing to do, UNLESS there were PRIOR agreements to the contrary.

73, Gene AF3Y

Gene, that is a given. If they had some other arrangement obviously that would dictate where the money goes.

The guys opposed to the excess money going to HARAOA or the NCDXF are very adamant and you  have the two HARAOA guys, one who will not even reply at all, versus the others.  I think if there was such a prior agreement, John, VK2YP, would have posted it online and that would've ended the debate right then and there since whether it was fair or not I think most everybody would say you guys have a written agreement, so keep it.

73,

Chris/NU1O

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NU1O
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« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2012, 07:49:35 PM »

Maybe some of the commentators should organize and run a dxpedition and take on the risk that comes with it ?
ZL9HR was a success and organized by hard working people driven by a interest to activate a rare entity.
Agreements to the fee structure was agreed with all team members prior to the event.

John,

I wrote three separate posts saying what a great job the team did on the Campbell Island expedition and my call is on your donor page. When I was singing those praises I was including you and your colleague, Tommy, VK2IR. No matter the financial disputes or what I feel should happen with donations I am never going to say anything negative about the trip itself. It was a first rate expedition, in my opinion. Always was, and always will be.

However, I have read the back and forth, both in this forum and on DX World, and to be perfectly blunt your side of the story with regard to finances is the side that does not hold up.

On the one hand there is an email which is claimed to be written by you - on DX World - which states any surplus funds will stay in HARAOA but there are no excess funds. Now you are saying you have sent $1,000 to the NCDXF and that's where any remaining money will go. Did you in fact write that email or are you did not write that email?

You had a ten man team yet you are making unilateral decisions as to how much, and where surplus funds are going. Your ancestors came from Greece and even every young school child knows the Greeks invented democracy. Don't the other members get to vote on very big issues concerning money and how it is disbursed? Why are you making all these important decisions on your own?  If the agreement was the surplus stays with HORAOA why are you now changing it so money is going to the NCDXF?  It seems you are acting more like a dictator then a member of a 10 man team where each person should have one vote.

My donation was made with the intent it would help team members recover the expenses they paid from their own personal assets. I can make a donation to the NCDXF on my own.

I asked some very basic questions and I hope you will answer them.


73,

Chris/NU1O

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K3STX
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« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2012, 08:12:17 PM »

I guess I am hopelessly naive. I have ALWAYS assumed that a "$100,000" DXpedition required something approaching $100,000 UP FRONT to pay for boat, equipment, fees, etc... In that I ALSO included airfare, hotel stay waiting for boat, etc... 

When I chip in with my OQRS or whatever, I have always assumed that my money (and every individual donors money) would be totaled up and distributed (more or less) equally among the members who PAID that initial $100,000 out of their pocket. That sure seems fair to me. Why should VK3YP be out $8000 simply because the DX world wants a new one? Most of us are not wealthy. I sure as hell could not miss 2 weeks of work and spend $5000 on my hobby! The idea of large numbers of donors contributing a little bit each is to get some big $$$ to help defray to cost these guys paid OUT OF THEIR POCKET.

Why (and how) could it be any other way? Why would anyone "thank" the ZL9HR team with a donation if they thought it would be spent on fuel for the NEXT DXpedition that they might have no interest in at all?

paul
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