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Author Topic: ZL9HR money?  (Read 35804 times)
VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2012, 12:33:41 AM »

Wow, sure is heating up in the dx-world comments.
Where's Tommy?
One operator claims the 40m moxon never came out?
No wonder they were so weak here.

The 40M moxon never came out because we lost 3 days and did not have time to set it up.
I can also tell you that if it was not for the evohe boat crew of 3 men including the skipper helping haul gear onto the island and even setup antennas etc. ZL9HR would have been a total flop. We where blessed with lazy operators who expected a 5 star dxpedition in which they did not need to lift a finger to help but just sit at the radio and operate.
And they are demanding money and financial statements 1 week after the dxpedition to offset costs - which was never agreed.
VK3YP
ZL9HR Co Leader

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VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2012, 12:35:39 AM »

The agreement with the operators was $1000 contribution - end of story. There was never any agreement to any donations or equipment etc.
I would like to give you a full finalised statement of ZL9HR expenses 1 week after the dxpedition has finished but this will not be possible. We are still receiving donations and not even a QSL card has gone out yet etc.

This an advance payment for any surplus once the ZL9HR books are closed in due course.
We will provide a financial statement to NCDXF along with donations of any surplus funds.

In good faith I have advanced $1000 USD to NCDXF via Paypal.


ReceiptPayments by PayPal

Contributor:

Donations Coordinator:
Ioannis Chalkiarakis
PO BOX 13
Sans Souci, New South Wales 2219
Australia

Northern California DX Foundation
treas@ncdxf.org

Confirmation Number: 8JU77059153185014 Placed on 21 Dec 2012
Purpose Donation
Amount:
NCDXF Contribution
Reference: HARAOA $1,000.00 USD
Total Amount: $1,000.00 USD
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VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2012, 12:47:36 AM »

So far in the last day have returned $3000 USD to the Major DXpedition foundations. Once the ZL9HR books are closed any excess funds will be paid to NCDXF. This is to return to the DX community.
Myself and Tommy do not put many hours of our own time and our own personal funds to arrange successful DXpeditions, Club events etc. to make money. We do it for the hobby.
Tommy and the HARAOA team have spent countless weekends at the local Bunnings hardware store (i.e. Home Depot) selling bbq sausages and drinks  in Sydney to raise thousands of dollars for the club and to purchase the TS590S and SPE amps we used on VK9HR and ZL9HR.
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9M6XRO
Member

Posts: 8




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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2012, 03:00:09 AM »

I have just come across VK3YP's posts on this topic and there could never be a more skewed or twisted account of what actually took place on this DXpedition. Let's start with the least of them, the comment about lazy operators. VK3YP was the tallest, youngest and probably fittest guy there but he was bone idle - as I told him, he loved hard work - he could stand and watch it all day. He was quite happy to stand back and watch the 'seniors' do all the toil. Same style on the radio - he took every opportunity to remain on the boat and let others run the pile ups. In my opinion this man has no affinity whatsoever with ham radio.
Let's be clear, us international ops paid US$8700 each upfront for this DXpedition to go ahead. I am not new to DXpeditioning, I've been a ham for over 50 years, so I am well aware of the ethics involved in sponsorship, donations etc. and what is legitimate. Mostly I operate unsponsored, but in the past I have never had to sign an agreement to get a small share of the funds at the end of a DXpedition to offset heavy expenses - always done amicably among the group. This is accepted practice but not with HARAOA it seems. We, according to VK3YP were entitled to NOTHING. The claim that we were seeking money to cover our airfares to New Zealand and "sightseeing trips" is simply offensive but exemplifies the character assassination VK3YP has been carrying out on team members ever since we asked for a Financial Reconciliation for what was after all a DXpedition with a close to $100,000 budget. Does asking for an accounting sound unreasonable to anyone?
Gene/K5GS, an all round great guy, was our spokesman to email requesting the Financial Reconciliation. His email could not have been more polite, asking that a date be set, suggesting January 31st for the account to close, with a distribution to team members, subject to our approval, to be made by February 7th. In that email he stated that any claims for repairs to equipment, additional expenses (like John's dinner bill of NZ$600) would first be deducted before distribution. Any funds received after that date we agreed would go to HARAOA with no further accounting necessary. Don't forget the QSL Mgr is asking about $5.30 a card by OQRS so we are not talking pennies here. John's reaction to Gene's email was that he was being "threatened" basically by greedy ops trying to get what they could. Pardon? The only way he was under threat was because someone was asking to see the books. A big secret, it seems.
Don't be taken in by his claim that he paid the AUD5000 customs bond, he gets it all back when the gear arrives back in Australia. Somehow he always omits to mention that.
I just read he has even given his "recommendation" on which ops are suitable for future DXpeditions. This from a guy whose real love is 27MHz CB. Thanks, John, but I don't need your recommendation to get on  DXpedition. 
Before we even departed NZ for Campbell Island, $17,000 in sponsorship money had already been pledged. What on earth is all his talk about "breaking even" - the boat hire was paid, the fuel was paid, the fee for the DoC Officer to accompany us was already paid - all by the ops. My hunch is that the plan was for the sponsorship money to build up a stock of equipment for HARAOA e.g. a 40m Moxon, 5el 6m yagi (neither unpacked on Campbell), gennys, satellite phone, reels and reels of cable etc.
It is good to see some of the call signs on this thread and I can recall working AF3Y, NU1O and K3STX. BTW for you RTTY enthusiasts out there, we did not do as much as I would have liked. We all assumed an interface to N1MM Logger would be ready to use but VK3YP insisted we use the HRD Log RTTY program - can you imagine, a massive pile-up, AFSK with a 2.4KHz USB filter. It was just not up to the job and we also had to export the log from it and import it into N1MM. VK3YP's attitude to RTTY can be summed up by his comment to me "We forgot to bring the monkey, so you can do RTTY"......believe me we are not dealing with a very nice guy on this thread.
BTW, not ONE WORD has been heard from our "Team Leader" since we landed back in New Zealand. Both failed to turn up at the final "celebration dinner" which was planned months in advance. We had served our purpose I guess...

73 - John 9M6XRO / GM3OOK
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VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2012, 03:12:36 AM »

John please post Genes email to me in full here.
I will not respond to threats and deadlines to pay money.
Excess funds will go back to the DX Community who supported this event.

John - I asked you to stay and help pack the equipment on our return but you refused (along with Gene, Pista and Don) and left to your hotel room - remember that ?

You can say what you like to defend yourself like you have done in your previous email but the facts are that you and the other 3 took off and left the rest of the team to pack the equipment.

And you expect financial restitution as well ?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 03:40:01 AM by VK3YP » Logged
VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2012, 04:05:30 AM »

"Gene/K5GS, an all round great guy, was our spokesman to email requesting the Financial Reconciliation. His email could not have been more polite, asking that a date be set, suggesting January 31st for the account to close, with a distribution to team members, subject to our approval, to be made by February 7th. In that email he stated that any claims for repairs to equipment, additional expenses (like John's dinner bill of NZ$600) would first be deducted before distribution. Any funds received after that date we agreed would go to HARAOA with no further accounting necessary."

Your comment above is a Total fabrication John padded with the words "polite", "an all round great guy", "suggested" etc.
Lets see the real email ?
Why don't you post it ?

John please post Genes email to me in full here for all to see.
I will not respond to threats and deadlines to pay money.
Excess funds will go back to the DX Community who supported this event.

John - I asked you to stay and help pack the equipment on our return but you refused (along with Gene, Pista and Don) and left to your hotel room - remember that ?

You can say what you like to defend yourself like you have done in your previous email but the facts are that you and the other 3 took off and left the rest of the team to pack the equipment.

And you expect financial restitution as well ?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:52:47 AM by VK3YP » Logged
NU1O
Member

Posts: 2659




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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2012, 05:05:44 AM »

I have read enough in this forum and on DX World to have made up my mind.

Every team member deserves an accurate accounting of the funds.  I have a degree in Accounting and that's just a no-brainer.  It should probably be done by an independent party with no ties to any member so it is truly independent. My only concern is the cost because when you start hiring accountants and other professionals the expenses will escalate - very quickly.

In a previous post I made an off-the-cuff remark that expeditions will soon need lawyers. Hopefully that remains a joke and never comes to fruition. My father and two brothers are lawyers so I am not about to knock the profession but even they would advise to work this out amongst yourselves -- if possible.

Although $100,000 is a lot of money for individual hams to lay out it's not a great deal of money to account for.  Perhaps you guys could find some club whom everybody trusts and let them have their financial person/team do the accounting. You really only need a bookkeeper. You don't need a certified auditor unless that was part of your deal. My personal C.P.A would charge at least $1,000 to audit the books. I'd rather see that kind of money be used to make actual QSOs.

With regards to the donations, my personal donation was made with the intent that it would help the team members recover some, or all, of the money they personally spent to put this expedition on the air.  My donation was certainly not made with the intent or any expectation it would wind up in the coffers of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.  I am familiar with most of the clubs who make regular donations to help fund these expeditions and H.A.R.A.O.A is not a club I recognize as a frequent donor. It's very possible I am mistaken but it's an honest observation.

If the whole trip had been carried out and paid for by the members of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia I would then feel the donations belong to that club. However, since only two team members are members of H.A.R.A.O.A this trip was a de facto operation put on by the individual team members.

To VK3YP and VK3IR, I expect my donation to be used to reimburse the team members for the upfront money they expended. I do not want my donation going to the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.

I have one question which hopefully a team member could answer.  On the ZL9HR web site under sponsors one of the first things I see is the emblem of H.A.R.O.A.. That gives me the impression they were the largest donor to this expedition.  Did H.A.R.O.A. write out a significant check to cover the expenses of this expedition?  If not, why is their emblem displayed above your largest donor?


Sincerely,

Chris Scibelli/NU1O



« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 05:11:11 AM by NU1O » Logged
9M6XRO
Member

Posts: 8




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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2012, 05:27:09 AM »

Let's get this straight, John, we did not "take off" as you keeping saying. All the luggage, a large amount, belonging to the team ops was in the trailer of the bus. DoC did not need to inspect it, were we supposed to dump it on the street? The bus driver said his hire extended to dropping us at the motel, that was it, he would not wait and take us back to the DoC depot. "Time is money" he said. (OK you paid the bus, so what, claim it back off the sponsorship fund, we already said all legitimate expenses would be reimbursed to HARAOA first, including the dinner you paid). At the motel we offloaded all the luggage, got rooms for everyone including the guys at DoC, and placed the luggage in each room. Even Gilly's luggage was there. By that time, what was the point of us returning to the DoC depot? Did you actually need 10 guys to fill 3 crates? I spoke to Dave afterwards and he said here was no problem at all. I just cannot understand why you keep throwing up all these red herrings. I pulled my weight throughout that trip and you know it - despite the fact that I got badly bruised ribs in the rough weather heading south to Campbell and am still suffering. I never missed a shift, did double ones when others were ill, and I never slept even one minute when I was ashore in Campbell. Can you or Tommy say that?
Why don't you just end this now and do a proper accounting of this project. That is all that is being asked. No one is threatening you with anything. Jeez, if everything is above board what the heck have you got to be so defensive about? It is as much a part of the DXpedition as us paying what you asked upfront. Why can't you grasp that?
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VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2012, 05:34:17 AM »

Chris,

The accounts will be finalised at the completion of all transactions and not beforehand or 1 week after the event or even by Jan 30th as demanded by Gene.

All the money was used to buy the equipment and pay expenses that was needed for this event to happen.

HARAOA organized this event and provided additional funds and equipment to make this event possible.

There was an agreement made with the team around the payment structure and accepted. The travel was all paid individually by everyone directly to the travel companies. This includes the boat charter.

BTW - The total amount is less than $25K and not $100K.

Any excess funds will go to NCDXF to benefit DX community.


I have read enough in this forum and on DX World to have made up my mind.

Every team member deserves an accurate accounting of the funds.  I have a degree in Accounting and that's just a no-brainer.  It should probably be done by an independent party with no ties to any member so it is truly independent. My only concern is the cost because when you start hiring accountants and other professionals the expenses will escalate - very quickly.

In a previous post I made an off-the-cuff remark that expeditions will soon need lawyers. Hopefully that remains a joke and never comes to fruition. My father and two brothers are lawyers so I am not about to knock the profession but even they would advise to work this out amongst yourselves -- if possible.

Although $100,000 is a lot of money for individual hams to lay out it's not a great deal of money to account for.  Perhaps you guys could find some club whom everybody trusts and let them have their financial person/team do the accounting. You really only need a bookkeeper. You don't need a certified auditor unless that was part of your deal. My personal C.P.A would charge at least $1,000 to audit the books. I'd rather see that kind of money be used to make actual QSOs.

With regards to the donations, my personal donation was made with the intent that it would help the team members recover some, or all, of the money they personally spent to put this expedition on the air.  My donation was certainly not made with the intent or any expectation it would wind up in the coffers of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.  I am familiar with most of the clubs who make regular donations to help fund these expeditions and H.A.R.A.O.A is not a club I recognize as a frequent donor. It's very possible I am mistaken but it's an honest observation.

If the whole trip had been carried out and paid for by the members of the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia I would then feel the donations belong to that club. However, since only two team members are members of H.A.R.A.O.A this trip was a de facto operation put on by the individual team members.

To VK3YP and VK3IR, I expect my donation to be used to reimburse the team members for the upfront money they expended. I do not want my donation going to the Hellenic Amateur Radio Association of Australia.

I have one question which hopefully a team member could answer.  On the ZL9HR web site under sponsors one of the first things I see is the emblem of H.A.R.O.A.. That gives me the impression they were the largest donor to this expedition.  Did H.A.R.O.A. write out a significant check to cover the expenses of this expedition?  If not, why is their emblem displayed above your largest donor?


Sincerely,

Chris Scibelli/NU1O




« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 06:11:39 AM by VK3YP » Logged
9M6XRO
Member

Posts: 8




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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2012, 06:11:27 AM »

John/VK3YP :

You say :

"If there are any excess funds they will go to NCDXF to benefit DX community"

Do you actually realise what you are saying here? There is no logic to it.
Those excess funds you return to NCDXF will then presumably sponsor another DXpedition. On THAT DXpedition those funds will then be distributed among the ops to offset their expenses, as usually happens.

But you will not distribute the funds to offset our $8700 expenses on ZL9HR.....how SCREWY is that?Huh  Huh

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 06:21:20 AM by 9M6XRO » Logged
VK3YP
Member

Posts: 22




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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2012, 06:23:10 AM »

The agreement was as per the dxpedition contribution fee structure as accepted by everyone.
You only paid $1000 plus $650 Landing fees as agreed.

The travel was agreed to be paid directly by each member to the travel companies including the yacht hire company.

There was NO agreement to distribute donations to any team members.

John/VK3YP :

You say :

"If there are any excess funds they will go to NCDXF to benefit DX community"

What you are saying is that NCDXF will then sponsor another DXpedition with those excess funds, and that the funds will then be distributed amongst the ops on THAT DXpedition to offset their expenses...

But you will not distribute the funds to offset our $8700 expenses on ZL9HR.....how SCREWY is that?Huh  Huh


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K0YQ
Member

Posts: 446




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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2012, 07:20:56 AM »



With regards to the donations, my personal donation was made with the intent that it would help the team members recover some, or all, of the money they personally spent to put this expedition on the air. 

That was, and always is, my intent as well.  I donate annually to NCDXF and also individually to each trip just for this reason. 

After reading this thread I'm also glad that nobody was hurt or mutinied.
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K7KB
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Posts: 607




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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2012, 08:06:46 AM »

Wow, it's a real shame that it has come down to this from such a top notch operation. You would hope that a gentlemen's agreement would be all you need but it seems that now it will come down to written contracts between the team leaders, supporting organization(s), and the team members. And eventually this might curtail future DX'peditions because of the legal requirements. Come on guys, work it out. Tis the season you know Smiley

John K7KB  
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K3STX
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Posts: 977




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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2012, 08:20:18 AM »

I have read all this and the DX World thread. I think I have a pretty good idea what is going on here. I suspect 98% of the readers know what is going on here.

Doesn't eHam ever lock-down discussions? This one is not "ending" well.

paul
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AF3Y
Member

Posts: 3735




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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2012, 09:07:42 AM »

I have read all this and the DX World thread. I think I have a pretty good idea what is going on here. I suspect 98% of the readers know what is going on here.

Doesn't eHam ever lock-down discussions? This one is not "ending" well.

paul

Paul, I agree, this airing of all this dirty laundry here is not doing anyone any good.  Parts of it may be amusing reading to those persons who follow soap operas, etc., but IMHO this is not the place to iron out differences of this type.  Hopefully, all parties will come to an agreement that will more or less satisfy everyone and we can move on to the next expedition. I think a few steps back and a deep breath or two all around may be helpful here.

73, Gene AF3Y
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