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Author Topic: ZL9HR money?  (Read 39891 times)
K0RS
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Posts: 790




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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2012, 09:11:55 AM »

I have read all this and the DX World thread. I think I have a pretty good idea what is going on here. I suspect 98% of the readers know what is going on here.

Doesn't eHam ever lock-down discussions? This one is not "ending" well.

paul

I agree 100% with Paul.

I am saddened and embarrassed to to see this discussion taking place on the eHam forum.  I sincerely hope that the members of the DXdepition can arrive at solution or consensus that is satisfactory to the participants...in private.

Enough of this trial by public opinion and these hearsay accusations.

Larry/K0RS
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AF3Y
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Posts: 3882




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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2012, 09:21:58 AM »

I see they have ended the DX-World thread. I think we would be well served if this one was terminated as well. No good being done here.......

73, Gene AF3Y
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MM0NDX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2012, 10:12:33 AM »

Actually DX World has re-opened comments:

Quote
At the requests of many, and along the lines of closing this thread is akin to emptying a court room in the middle of a trial, people are genuinely interested to know about this situation as future donations to HARAROA (and other organisations) may ride on it.

Every comment will be moderated before publishing – doesn’t matter if you’ve posted previously. The Dx world has a right to see this played out since all who donated have a stake in this turn of events.

Usage of “Liar” or “Full of sh*t” are not welcome and spirals into the territory of libel.

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W2IRT
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2012, 10:29:30 AM »

Usage of “Liar” or “Full of sh*t” are not welcome and spirals into the territory of libel.

I would say the former is actually valid if one can back up a deliberate untruth and the latter is valid with proof from a board-certified proctologist or gastroenterologist Cheesy

Otherwise, I do agree, a full and open dialog is in the best interests of the amateur community on many different and highly-relevant levels. This, to me, is about an issue vastly more telling than money.
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Night gathers and now my watch begins. It shall not end until I reach Top of the Honor Roll.
K0RS
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Posts: 790




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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2012, 10:55:59 AM »

Quote
closing this thread is akin to emptying a court room in the middle of a trial

Bull.  Mudslinging and hurling accusations are in no way akin to a trial.  That statement is nonsense.

Quote
The Dx world has a right to see this played out since all who donated have a stake in this turn of events

More bull.  While there are plenty of voyeurs out there that will follow this soap opera with barely self-contained glee, the fact is that these poor actors on an international stage behaving like children will make the vast majority of DXers more disinclined to contribute financially to DXpeditions in the future.  The DX world in general will suffer for this.  Grow up.  Keep your pissing contests private, please.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 11:12:38 AM by K0RS » Logged
MM0NDX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2012, 11:25:41 AM »

K0RS,

The irony of your post is not lost on me..

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W6GX
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Posts: 3112




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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2012, 11:25:53 AM »

Quote
closing this thread is akin to emptying a court room in the middle of a trial

Bull.  Mudslinging and hurling accusations are in no way akin to a trial.  That statement is nonsense.

Quote
The Dx world has a right to see this played out since all who donated have a stake in this turn of events

More bull.  While there are plenty of voyeurs out there that will follow this soap opera with barely self-contained glee, the fact is that these poor actors on an international stage behaving like children will make the vast majority of DXers more disinclined to contribute financially to DXpeditions in the future.  The DX world in general will suffer for this.  Grow up.  Keep your pissing contests private, please.

Agreed.  I don't see how there could be a 'winner' emerging from this pissing contest.

73,
Jonathan W6GX
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K0RS
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Posts: 790




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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2012, 12:02:53 PM »

K0RS,

The irony of your post is not lost on me..

Perhaps that's because there is no irony intended.

Who has an interest in the internal financial details of this DXpedition other than the principals?

Donating a few bucks to the OQRS doesn't buy you a front row seat to a food fight.

It could be argued that major donors are entitled to some type of financial accounting, but even that assertion is dubious.  Contributors donate expecting that a DXpedition actually takes place.  If they are scammed of their donation or if the expedition significantly underperforms, then they have an interest in what became of their money.  I don't think anyone would argue that is the case with this particular operation.  How funds are distributed internally is the business of the members of the DXpedition.  That is not to say there are no problems here, but it is difficult for me to comprehend how that is the interest of the DX community at large.  I think the airing of this problem in public forums such as this does a disservice to the DX community, especially with the dubious conduct and language that has so far been exemplified.
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MM0NDX
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2012, 12:35:00 PM »

Quote
Who has an interest in the internal financial details of this DXpedition other than the principals?

Those who donated, personally, and significantly?

Quote
I think the airing of this problem in public forums such as this...<snip>

Well, don't read or reply then, and let those with justifiable comments/complaints have a voice in this serious matter.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 12:38:31 PM by MM0NDX » Logged
K0AP
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2012, 12:53:58 PM »

Quote
Who has an interest in the internal financial details of this DXpedition other than the principals?

Those who donated, personally, and significantly?

Quote
I think the airing of this problem in public forums such as this...<snip>

Well, don't read or reply then, and let those with justifiable comments/complaints have a voice in this serious matter.

Exactly. If you don't want to read and/or comment that's fine with me but don't tell the others what they should or should not do. As long as this forum's rules are not broken I have no problem what others have to say about anything related to the HAM radio. Significant amount of sponsorship is being involved here so, in my opinion, the public have the right to know what is going on.
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KY6R
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« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2012, 01:28:29 PM »

There is one major benefit that this airing of "dirty laundry" can bring:

From now on - EVERY DX-pedition should publish a full accounting of every penny taken in and where it was used as a spreadhseet posted on their DX-ped website.

It would also have a list of the actions the team will take regarding what happens when they fall short - break even or have an "overage" as far as money is concerned.

In other words, what N1DG called for - which is Full "Transparency".

Call it the DX-er Financial Code of Conduct . . . .
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K0RS
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Posts: 790




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« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2012, 01:44:34 PM »

It might well be worth remembering that the ARRL can revoke participation in the DXCC program for poor sportsmanship.  While this is normally construed to mean an operator, I am sure the DXAC would have no problem applying it to an operation should they feel it appropriate.  I think it unlikely that behaviour in this case has risen to such egregious levels (yet), it appears the potential is there.  Again, the concern would not be how funds are distributed internally, but rather the willingness of the operators to resort to public fora to hurl invective and indeed profanity at one another.  Such disqualification, while unfair to those who worked ZL9HR for an ATNO or even a new band/country, would serve notice to future operations to behave in a civilized manner, at least in public.

@MM0NDX:
Quote
Those who donated, personally, and significantly?
Did you bother to read or comprehend my previous post?

@K0AP
Quote
If you don't want to read and/or comment that's fine with me but don't tell the others what they should or should not do.
Far from telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, I'm simply suggesting interested parties consider the implications of their unseemly behaviour on funding for future DXpeditions.  BTW, isn't telling me not to read or comment on the posts contrary to your own advice?  Do I not have a right to be as interested in the future of DXing as anyone else?

For those of you who are enjoying wallowing in this pathetic display, have a great time.

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KY6R
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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2012, 01:54:12 PM »

It might well be worth remembering that the ARRL can revoke participation in the DXCC program for poor sportsmanship.  While this is normally construed to mean an operator, I am sure the DXAC would have no problem applying it to an operation should they feel it appropriate.  I think it unlikely that behaviour in this case has risen to such egregious levels (yet), it appears the potential is there.  Again, the concern would not be how funds are distributed internally, but rather the willingness of the operators to resort to public fora to hurl invective and indeed profanity at one another.  Such disqualification, while unfair to those who worked ZL9HR for an ATNO or even a new band/country, would serve notice to future operations to behave in a civilized manner, at least in public.

I was a donor and a pilot for this operation. The idea to punish those who donated their time and money to work an operation that was successful and did everything correct "by the book" as far as a RADIO operation - but had some internal issues is a rediculous idea.

I also very much wish this was never aired in public - and think it did a lot more harm to do so - but since it was - the discussion was opened up to the public and people participated in the discussion. Also - if some governing group tries to dictate who can say what and when - then you get into a freedom of speech issue.

Rather than punish people like me who donated time, money and who earned an ATNO - why not make lemonade out of a lemon and call for a full accounting from now on _within_ each DX-pedition. Full transparency would be a MUCH better way to self-regulate - far better than the ARRL or the DXAC or all of us particpating in this discussion - including yourself.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 02:18:21 PM by KY6R » Logged
K0AP
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2012, 02:09:57 PM »

It might well be worth remembering that the ARRL can revoke participation in the DXCC program for poor sportsmanship.  While this is normally construed to mean an operator, I am sure the DXAC would have no problem applying it to an operation should they feel it appropriate.  I think it unlikely that behaviour in this case has risen to such egregious levels (yet), it appears the potential is there.  Again, the concern would not be how funds are distributed internally, but rather the willingness of the operators to resort to public fora to hurl invective and indeed profanity at one another.  Such disqualification, while unfair to those who worked ZL9HR for an ATNO or even a new band/country, would serve notice to future operations to behave in a civilized manner, at least in public.

@MM0NDX:
Quote
Those who donated, personally, and significantly?
Did you bother to read or comprehend my previous post?

@K0AP
Quote
If you don't want to read and/or comment that's fine with me but don't tell the others what they should or should not do.
Far from telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, I'm simply suggesting interested parties consider the implications of their unseemly behaviour on funding for future DXpeditions.  BTW, isn't telling me not to read or comment on the posts contrary to your own advice?  Do I not have a right to be as interested in the future of DXing as anyone else?

For those of you who are enjoying wallowing in this pathetic display, have a great time.



Of course you as anyone else have a right to be interested in the future of DXing. That is why we should have open discussions about issues like this and not lock down topics as someone suggested earlier and you have agreed 100% with.
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VK3YP
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Posts: 22




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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2012, 02:56:19 PM »

I totally agree that as far a sponsors are concerned who make such events possible - every Dxpedition receiving donations should post the financials.
 
The ZL9HR financials will be posted on the HARAOA website.

John VK3YP
ZL9HR Team Co Leader
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 03:00:18 PM by VK3YP » Logged
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