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Author Topic: Hey DX-ers! Vote with Your Donation Money!  (Read 6056 times)
W4PC
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Posts: 314


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« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2012, 09:36:41 PM »

Don Miller keeps coming up doesnt he?

Wow compare the 1960's to 2012 and then just imagine 30 years from now Shocked
IMO just Trust or don't Trust the people involved, if you don't then don't give any money, if you do then give what you want to.  No need to change the way we treat each other just because we get our fingers burned once in awhile.


I agree - but in the 60's we didn't have the Internet and "social media" . . . . Progress? But you are right - I can only remember 4 big controversies since I became a ham in 1973 regarding DX-peditions. Which means this sort of thing is rare. Airing the dirty details in public is even more rare.

One of the controversies in the 60's was a Navassa DX-pedition done by two guys in a small private boat who went to Navassa. That one did not count:

http://dxccsleuth.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/navassa-island-pirate-of-the-caribbean/

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KD6KVL
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Posts: 77




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« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2012, 10:35:31 PM »

KY6R wrote:
"Heck - I'd love to see a thermometer on a DX-ped web site - like at school fund raisers or town fund raisers where the thermometer is at 100% when the goal is met."

Thats funny, I suggested just that at Visalia this year in the DX forum.

On another note, what if a situation arise when a dxpedition is in country and the locals officials require un-accounted for renumeration to smooth a path say through customs for instance.
At this point the dxpoedition is a no go without the equipment, so its best to just pay the extra money.
Should this be accounted?
There are many instances on DXpeditions where things like this pop up, and I don't fully agree of them being publisized.
It would be nice for a plus and minus record, but I don't want the guys to have to tell all on all.
It could burn bridges and cause major safety problems

Frank KG6N
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NU1O
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Posts: 2692




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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2012, 01:16:59 AM »


As for the financial disclosure discussion I do like transparency and accountability.  I just believe that the negatives outweighs the positives.  We as donors obviously have nothing to lose by demanding the financial statements.  However the operators and suppliers and perhaps many others have their reasons not to disclose the data, not for the reason of financial impropriety but for other reasons I outlined in my previous post.

73,
Jonathan W6GX

If the financial report is made public on the expedition's website, for example, what kind of act are you worried about?  If you don't want to say in public it's fine to email me.

73,

Chris/NU1O

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W6GX
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Posts: 2794




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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2012, 09:00:40 AM »

If the financial report is made public on the expedition's website, for example, what kind of act are you worried about?  If you don't want to say in public it's fine to email me.

73,
Chris/NU1O

Hi Chris,

What I meant to say is that some people could use the financial data and the internet to spread baseless accusations and lies against the operator in an effort to ruin the operator's reputation.  This would be the worst case scenario and I sure hope it never happens.

Here's an example of a more realistic scenario of how the operator's reputation could be damaged unintentionally.  Let's say an organizer spends $5000 on six generators.  They publish this fact on their financial statement.  An inquisitive DX'er and donor posts a question on a DX forum or blog of who gets to keep the generators after the conclusion of the dxpedition.  If there's no balance sheet provided then ordinary citizens will assume the organizer got to keep it which could be either a club or any individuals organizing the event.  Most people would be ok with this as it could be assumed that the organizer will use the generators for future dxpeditions.  Others could argue the generators should be sold and the proceeds distributed equally among the operators in an effort to offset their expenses.  Given a choice the guest operators of the dxpedition would probably prefer to have the generators sold.  A less-than-happy guest op posts the answer to the original question and in very little time you end up with a heated debate on what to do with all materials purchased for a dxpedition down to the coax connector.  In the aftermath of the debate a group of hams have made up their mind to never make a donation to that particular organizer.  The fact could be that it's the norm for dxpedition organizers to keep the equipment for future dxpeditions.  Now we end up with one organizer that loses funding to other organizers that don't publish financial statements and will also keep all purchased equipment.  How fair is that?

Have a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

73,
Jonathan W6GX
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W2IRT
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2012, 09:21:28 AM »

My take on this is that there needs to be an iron-clad contract ahead of time, agreed to by all parties, and that within an agreed-upon period of time following the completion of the trip, the books are available to team members (only), with an agreement of confidentiality during this period. After 6 months or a year (for example), the books are then finalized and available to the ham community, with perhaps general categories for expenses rather than individualized items if necessary.

Really, the important thing to remember here is that what the ham community needs to see is what it costs to run, what they received (both from individuals and larger organizations) and how any overage/shortage is handled. Equipment disposition may also be significant and should also be part of both the initial contract and the final accounting.

The bottom line in all of this is that the general community needs to know if they're being played for someone's vacation, for the enrichment of club coffers or defraying the actual accrued costs of mounting the DXpedition. I will gladly support the latter. I will not support the former two.
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NU1O
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Posts: 2692




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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2012, 10:01:00 AM »

Hi Chris,

What I meant to say is that some people could use the financial data and the internet to spread baseless accusations and lies against the operator in an effort to ruin the operator's reputation.  This would be the worst case scenario and I sure hope it never happens.


Have a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

73,
Jonathan W6GX

Somebody could raise any question they desired but I think just about every reasonable ham would agree there should be an agreement between the participants before hand. Practically speaking there really is no way to enforce that agreement except through the court of public opinion since the operators are usually scattered over the globe. That is why I am not troubled that this controversy went public.  

I think Col, MM0NDX, had excerpts on his site from an agreement he signed when he went on a trip. If the agreement, which would spell out what happens to donors funds and equipment purchased, was put on the group's website prior to the trip, I don't think anybody has a right to question what happens afterwards so long as the agreement was kept.

In the case at hand, ZL9HR, I am not so concerned about HARAOA keeping some generators and other equipment. What concerns me is it may dissuade other amateurs from fronting a significant amount of money - almost 5 figures in this case - for fear the person in charge of the money will do what they please with it.

Anyway, I will give the side against releasing financial information consideration over the holidays.

BTW, I heard you work TF2CL right after me. I was going to ask you to move up a few Khz but you were off the side of the beam and not very strong and TF2CL was working stations rapidly.

Thanks for the well wishes and all the help you gave me this year with the antenna system.

Enjoy the holidays!

73,

Chris/NU1O

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NU1O
Member

Posts: 2692




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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2012, 10:03:55 AM »

My take on this is that there needs to be an iron-clad contract ahead of time, agreed to by all parties, and that within an agreed-upon period of time following the completion of the trip, the books are available to team members (only), with an agreement of confidentiality during this period. After 6 months or a year (for example), the books are then finalized and available to the ham community, with perhaps general categories for expenses rather than individualized items if necessary.

Really, the important thing to remember here is that what the ham community needs to see is what it costs to run, what they received (both from individuals and larger organizations) and how any overage/shortage is handled. Equipment disposition may also be significant and should also be part of both the initial contract and the final accounting.

The bottom line in all of this is that the general community needs to know if they're being played for someone's vacation, for the enrichment of club coffers or defraying the actual accrued costs of mounting the DXpedition. I will gladly support the latter. I will not support the former two.

Pete,

That is a very well written opinion and I agree with everything you wrote. 

73,

Chris/NU1O

« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 10:10:47 AM by NU1O » Logged
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