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Author Topic: vertical antenna?  (Read 4008 times)
KI4SJU
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« on: December 27, 2012, 04:22:45 PM »

Hello fellow hams! I have a question and need some feedback. I live in a one story apartment building. I had a mfj G5RV up on the roof. The center of the antenna was attached to a PVC vent pipe and each leg of the G5RV went it other vent pipes. It worked OK but a recent snow storm took it down. I am looking to put up a vertical on the vent pipe but not sure which one to get. I can not have a 20 foot antenna or something like that up there. I was thinking maybe a Chameleon type antenna? Anyone used one for base setup? Anyone know of a vertical that has a small foot print that works well? Thanks

73's
Beau
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N6SBN
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 10:11:06 PM »

  LDG S-9 makes an 18'er.
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K0ZN
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 10:53:40 PM »


First question is:  What is the vent pipe made of ??  If it is PVC, it will not support a vertical. Wind torque would likely break it rather quickly. If it is steel or black iron,
you are probably OK.

Small....like very small, verticals do not work well. They are poor performers. You simply cannot get something for nothing in the antenna game. Small loaded
whips, etc. put out a small fraction of the radiation that a full size antenna will. That is just the laws of Physics. Bigger IS better, be it a G5RV, dipole or
full size vertical. Remember that a vertical will need some form of ground plane or radials.....those are the other HALF of a vertical antenna system.

73,  K0ZN
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WX7G
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 06:11:14 AM »

the MFJ-1796 might be what you're looking for.
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W5WSS
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2012, 09:19:26 AM »

Agree with S-9 or MFJ telescoping style

Or if the visual impact needs to be minimal

One can omit the rigid hollow non conductive tube that houses the wire

If

One can tie the dark colored wire either upwards or downwards from the feed point slightly sloped.will work as a vertical oriented vertically radiating antenna with the equipment that you mention.

Look around your structure for options perhaps you can omit the highly visible wide diameter tube.
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KI4SJU
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 05:08:45 PM »

Well I am looking around $300 or so price range. I have a ground stand that I can mount a telescoping mast to. Does anyone have a good antenna recommendation that I can mount to a telescoping mast? Vertical or dipole? I really do not want to have to lay out radials even tho I know it will work better but with all the kids running around here I know they would be pulling them up.
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K0ZN
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 05:34:19 PM »


Be honest with yourself: If you cannot or will not put out a modest number of radials for a vertical antenna that works against a ground radial system,
you are better off with some type of horizontal wire antenna. Literally, the radials are the other HALF of a vertical. You "can" install one with no radials
and some type of ground rod, but 50% of your transmitter's output power will be dissipated heating the earth and not radiated. With a small, loaded
type vertical and a poor or no ground radial system the losses skyrocket; you can quickly turn a 100 watt radio into a QRP station. People don't like to hear this stuff,
but it is simply the cold truth due to Ohm's law. Plain dirt is a very poor conductor of RF energy, where as copper wire (or other metal) radials are a very good conductor with low losses.

Respectfully, you would gain a lot by picking up a copy of the ARRL Antenna Book and putting a couple of hours of study on antenna fundamentals.
When you are in an "antenna challeged" QTH, the more you know about antennas and OPTIONS available, the greater your success and enjoyment
will be. This is a hobby and we are all faced with compromises, but knowledge of antennas can minimize the downside.

Good luck with you installation.   73,  K0ZN
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VE3FMC
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 05:20:56 AM »

Well I am looking around $300 or so price range. I have a ground stand that I can mount a telescoping mast to. Does anyone have a good antenna recommendation that I can mount to a telescoping mast? Vertical or dipole? I really do not want to have to lay out radials even tho I know it will work better but with all the kids running around here I know they would be pulling them up.

Kids are allowed on the roof of the apartment?  Shocked

Why not mount that G5RV you already had in place on the new mast system?

There are no magical verticals on the market. You need radials to make the vertical work properly. As you said you can not lay radial wires down because the kids will pull them up.

I might ask, what will stop the kids from messing with your mast system?

I also agree with K0ZN. Buy an antenna book and do some reading, in the long run you will be further ahead.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 05:27:33 AM by VE3FMC » Logged
KI4SJU
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Posts: 44




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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 07:34:29 AM »

Well I just had a thought, like some of you have said, reuse my g5rv but use a different mast. What about a telescopic mast? Which would be better fiberglass or aluminum? Also thought about the mfj bigear rotating dipole or a dipole similar. Has anyone used one?
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KI4SJU
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 08:40:09 AM »

Here is a picture of my property, maybe this can help you all give me some ideas as of what to use. Hustler 5BTV is now ground mounted and not on the antenna stand. Thought about using the stand and a telescoping pole to either raise my G5RV or a rotatable dipole.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p79/btlacer/DSC04016.jpg
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KK4GGL
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 09:12:19 AM »

Well I am looking around $300 or so price range. I have a ground stand that I can mount a telescoping mast to. Does anyone have a good antenna recommendation that I can mount to a telescoping mast? Vertical or dipole? I really do not want to have to lay out radials even tho I know it will work better but with all the kids running around here I know they would be pulling them up.

You might try "buried radials". Use a hand held grass edge trimmer and place the radials just under the grass.
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73,
Rick KK4GGL
KA7NIQ
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 09:54:50 AM »

Theory, and practice, are far different. There is NO substitution for experimentation.
I know a Ham in Detroit with a Hustler Vertical with NO Radials on a 5 story apartment building, who does just fine. OK, the RF is going somewhere, maybe the rebar, furnace vents, or electric wires in the building are providing the missing 1/2 of the antenna, but something sure is.
LOL, we scared him so bad, he put RF Chokes in his coax, and his vertical still works.

I have to agree, I would simply fix and reinstall the G5RV.

But I would still keep my eye out for a used vertical, and TRY it, see what happens ?
If it works, keep it. If not, sell it. If you buy it used, you will not lose money.
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KC4MOP
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 03:13:39 PM »

You have a pretty nice situation there. Something to work with. I guess you can not use the property for any projects. The vertical is what it is. Needs radials.
Fred
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VE3FMC
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 06:59:49 AM »

Here is a picture of my property, maybe this can help you all give me some ideas as of what to use. Hustler 5BTV is now ground mounted and not on the antenna stand. Thought about using the stand and a telescoping pole to either raise my G5RV or a rotatable dipole.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p79/btlacer/DSC04016.jpg

That is an apartment building? Looks like a house to me!

Get yourself a telescopic mast and put your G5RV back up. Or decide which bands you really want to operate on the most and build a fan dipole for those bands.
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