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Author Topic: Your thoughts on real time online log for dxpeditions  (Read 5076 times)
N6PSE
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2012, 04:52:19 PM »

As many dupes as there were, I don't think they prevented anyone from 8-land in getting thru. I'm really surprised to hear that someone in 8-land could not work us, everything east of the Rockies was quite loud to us and the propagation was open for many hours each day. 17 meters had some incredible openings.
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NI0C
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 04:58:20 PM »

AF3Y wrote:
Quote
Chuck, I honestly think you have hit the nail on the head. You are correct!  WHY in the HELL else would they be behaving that way?

It's just a theory, Gene, but the continuous calling practice has become so ubiquitous that there must be some rationale for it-- some form of intermittent reward for the perpetrators.  If this is the case, there are steps Dxpeditions might take to discourage the practice-- blacklisting (perhaps for the duration of an operating session), publishing offenders callsigns on their websites, etc.

I recall reading an article in an issue of the DX Magazine about 20 years ago, where the QSL manager for an expedition named callsigns of some particularly egregious "dupers." 

N6PSE wrote:
Quote
I don't think realtime or on-line logs benefit the DXpedition in any way.


Paul, that's a profound statement coming from someone so experienced!

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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N4NYY
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2012, 05:27:53 PM »

I don't really care. So long as I am in their log and made the QSO, I do not mind waiting a couple days for delayed logs. Even several days.
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NI0C
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2012, 05:34:00 PM »

Quote
So long as I am in their log and made the QSO, I do not mind waiting a couple days for delayed logs. Even several days.

Before the arrival of the internet, we used to wait until the return QSL arrived in the mail to really be sure we were in the log.  That often took months, sometimes a year or more.

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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N4KC
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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2012, 12:57:57 PM »

I think we all like the instant gratification of knowing we nabbed the DX for certain, and especially these days.  Frequent uploads or real-time logs online certainly keep me from trying for insurance against shaky QSOs.  I'm not a big signal, but that's one less hammering away in the pileup.

But I think the real benefit is simply allowing us to know we got 'em, we're in the log, and we can go on and try to get them on a marginal band or...wonder of wonders...do something productive with our time, maybe even spend it with our families.

73,

Don N4KC
www.n4kc.com
(Author of the new book RIDING THE SHORTWAVES:
EXPLORING THE MAGIC OF AMATEUR RADIO
Info at the web site.)
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KK6EK
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 01:33:14 PM »

Missed this discussion first time around, but I do have a few comments...

I created DXA for the K7C DXpedition, so  you know I am all for using technology to improve the DXers' experience. DXA provides real-time online logs, without any software installation and without updating the browser. For K7C it was wildly popular: some 42,000+ unique callsigns logged in (login wasn't necessary), some 43 million hits. After the DXpedition we solicited opinions, which you can see at http://www.cordell.org/DXA/DXA_survey_2005/DXA_survey_2005_question_6.html. I think you'll see there that it was almost universally enjoyed and appreciated.

Later I published an article in DX Magazine about real-time data from DXpeditions: http://www.cordell.org/KURE/KURE_documents/K7C_Kure_2005_article_DX_Magazine.pdf.

Some of you have said you don't think DXA reduces dups. But I have a very recent experience that is EXACTLY the reason it DOES: My first QSO with NH8S was on 20m, but it was a bit ambiguous--I wasn't sure he copied my callsign correctly. So I waited until the next day to look a the online logs. When I didn't find my QSO in the log, I assumed it was not there, so that night I made another QSO. Subsequently, the online logs showed BOTH of my 20m QSOs. I am now embarrassed in having done that, and in preventing another DXer from making a contact. If NH8S had been using DXA so I could have seen immediately that I was, in fact, safely in the log, someone else would have a nice QSO--sorry.

The argument is often put up that if your call is broken you can always work them again later. Well...propagation changes (and sometimes disappears), and at the end of the DXpedition, there is NO TOMORROW. On K7C we deliberately devoted the last day to All_Time_New_Ones, so if you were ethical but waited until the last day, you missed it.

Another feature of real-time online logs is that you can be absolutely sure you didn't work a pirate (anyone ever done that?). If you don't see your confirmation come up immediately, you aren't in the DXpedition log. If you do, you are.

There is also the intangible: the extraordinary pleasure of seeing your callsign come up on the world map within 1 minute of your QSO, and knowing that the entire DXing world is looking at it.

Finally, we plan to use DXA on our upcoming DXpedition to Clipperton, March, 2013 (see www.cordell.org/CI and on Heard Island 2014 (see www.heardisland.org. I hope you'll work us and that you'll enjoy the pleasure of seeing yourself in the log 60 seconds later, and knowing that you just allowed another DXer to get his QSO.

Bob KK6EK
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KD8MJR
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 03:12:49 PM »

I can see where it can be handy but I dread the days when people start bitching and moaning that Dxpedition “X” is not using live updates.  My other fear is that people have a tendency to get stupider with each technological crutch we hand them. I can easily see people starting to get lazy and abandoning proper practices and then depending on the live update to confirm if they got it right which will of course translate into loads of busted calls when a Dxpedition is not using DXA and of course more Lids calling in two or three times because the comfort blanket is not there to back them up.

BTW my simple solution for the really weak and rare one's is to always voice record the contact on my PC and then play it back right afterwards to confirm that the Op did indeed repeat my call correctly.   My thinking is that if the recording is correct the chances of a mistake are very slim and if there is a mistake I can easily email the QSL manager a copy of the recording so I get put in the logs.
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KK6EK
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 07:19:24 PM »

Very good. Tradition is fun, and classic radio, cars, music, etc. is perfectly legitimate.

But...if you're into in DXing, would you complain if the DXpedition had no online log server? Can you do without the DXpedition website? Both of these features were first used on Easter Island XR0Y/Z (1995), and for that I got a few flaming e-mails saying I was ruining radio. How about spots? What about your computer-intensive radio made in Japan, to say nothing of SDR? What did you do before there was a graphic display of the spectrum around the DXpedition listening frequency? For that matter, how about the internet itself? Would you call a friend on the phone and tell him about your QSO? Wait! No Yagis, because you're living in 1925 and it hasn't been invented yet! ...Marconi...Maxwell...I certainly hope you wouldn't advocate walking everywhere because bicycles would make people lazy.

I admire your confidence in your simple solution--it should always work when the QSO is clear enough to get a good recording. But then you surely heard the op give your call correctly at the time, so I don't quite understand the need for the recording. Will it help you when the contact is ambiguous?

But regardless, keep on keeping on, and if you don't want to look at the flags and map and the greenies on DXA, by all means, don't look. I'll log your QSO regardless of what technology you use or don't use, so don't worry--you're in the log!
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KY6R
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 09:03:07 PM »

I think DXA, the Cluster and Clublog are the "new norm". Are they needed in a life and limb way? No. The Microlite Penguins are the antithesis of this. I like the Microlite approach too. But if the "instant logs" are there - I like that too - some even update LOTW in tandem with an automatic Clublog (or whatever update). That is the ultimate in real time logging.

VP6T. I worked them and saw my LOTW credits within hours - amazing!!!!

But do people want instant log gratification? You betcha! Look at all the postings on the forums of people commenting when Clublog was last updated. You know they want instant log updates.

Its like people commuting in the morning on mass transit - they have their laptops, iPhones, iPads, Android based units all with instant access - even under the tunnel under the SF Bay on BART - why? Why do they want it - when only 4 years ago that was not the rule - but the exception.

The answer: because that's the "new norm".

Of course no one is forced to particpate - its freedom of choice all the way.

Time marches on.
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NI0C
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2012, 11:18:46 AM »

Bob, KK6EK,

I'm glad you joined us in this forum to provide your rationale for creating and developing "DXA."  I read your article in the DX Magazine, and also skimmed the comments that people provided on the Cordell webpage following the K7C operation.  It appears that you got a lot of compliments.  I'm glad that you acknowledged Wayne Mill's comments on real-time online logging, but I think that the "hundreds of DX'ers" you've talked to who seemed "bewildered" by Waynes' concerns were being needlessly obtuse. 

Here's the problem in a nutshell.  When the online log (near real-time, or otherwise) becomes the primary feedback to a DX'er that their QSO has taken place,  then the DX activity ceases to be a two-way radio communication.  It becomes a hybrid, internet-assisted form of communication.  The traditional DX award programs are setup for two-way radio communications, period.  I don't want to share a pileup with callers who can't hear the DX.  I think near real-time online logs encourages such behavior, and potentially rewards those who shouldn't be calling in the first place.
 
When you say that you want to provide enjoyment and excitement to the DX'er by providing instant fame and recognition on a website for his/her QSO, that's when I am bewildered.  Nothing can take the place of the satisfaction of hearing one's callsign, report, and subsequent acknowledgement from the DX station in the midst of a competitive pileup.  It is this set of ON-THE-AIR QSO elements-- not a website display-- that capture the thrill of DX'ing for me.  This is something that has not changed since the spark era.  If this authentic thrill and satisfaction in DX QSO's is to be preserved, then at least the delay time in providing online logs has to made large enough to discourage cheating.

I do acknowledge the value of online logs in verifying that one has not worked a "pirate" station. I first used an online log for this purpose during the VK0IR Heard Island expedition.  Since I didn't have internet access at home then, I went to the local public library to look up my QSO's.

I also acknowledge (as I did in an earlier posting above) the potential value of online logs in reducing the number of dupe QSO's.  But how do you explain the ten percent dupe rate experienced in the K7C operation?  (I wish I could find my reference for that number-- I did not make it up--- I know it was in an article somewhere, perhaps in QST. )

At any rate, I hope that you and others developing web tools for DX'ing will remain sensitive to the concerns of DX'ers who have been enjoying the hobby for many decades. I also hope that the current and future generations of new DX'ers will continue to take pride in their accomplishments and know that they are equivalent to what others have done in the past. 

73,

Chuck  NI0C   


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NN3W
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2012, 04:18:34 AM »

On dupe rates, I think you have two issues. 

First: Remember K7C was in 2005 when internet wasn't as acceptable or as accepted as today (especially by hams who are often troglodytes).  As time has run its course, computers have become the norm IN the shack and the comfort level with online log lookups is pretty universal.

Second: I think dupes towards the end of the contest exist because ops on certain bands sound downright bored and DXers feel like there is little downside to making a contact with the DXpedition to say "hi," "great job guys", or "you gonna be on 160 tonight".  I'm just guessing here but I've done that in the past.  Paul and the DX guys can confirm or refute this.
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IK0OZD
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 02:47:10 PM »

sorry but the allure of a not in the logs like old times?

It would be nice that logs online there was the chance only to see their qso,
Sometimes I think there's more PILEUP on online log that is not on the radio
mirror mirror on the sling who is the prettiest of the realm?
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NI0C
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2013, 08:47:12 AM »

From the 5X8C website this morning:

"About the online log, we stop now the real time upload to Clublog. The reason is that our network is not perfect and people are just doubling, tripling.... until they appears in the log ! Believes you ears, not your internet browser !"

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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