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Author Topic: DXCC?  (Read 35847 times)
N3QVB
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Posts: 81




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« on: February 07, 2013, 12:26:37 PM »

I'm new to remote HF station control so please excuse a question that I'm sure has been asked before.  It's been my understanding that contacts that are not 100% RF do not count for DXCC (ie: Echolink, CQ100 and the like).  Does the same hold true for remote HF station control since the internet is used to make the connection?
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WI4P
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2013, 09:02:00 AM »

I'm not an expert on DXCC rules but my understanding is that since the contact between your transmitting site and the DX stations are by radio wave propagation, these contacts count.  (assuming your transmitting site is US and not DX)

John
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WD4ELG
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2013, 07:40:48 PM »

Watch out, this has been the subject of HEATED debate here and elsewhere (remote operation of stations and DXCC).  The net of it (as I recall from the DXCC desk) in terms of what counts: think of operating the remote station as if you were sitting at the station.  It's the location of the station that counts.  And since you are generating RF, it counts. 

Side note:

Others will debate that operating someone else's station for DXCC is against the spirit of DXCC award (yes, you can operate other's stations remotely to work DX (http://w7dxx.com/).  But when you get the QSL card from operating someone else's station, it's going to have YOUR callsign on it, and as long as the station is in the 48 contiguous United States...then you are compliant.   (Yes, I have worked DX from the W7DXX remote base, and yes I did get a QSL card.  3B9WR.  Yes, I was signing with my callsign.  I was legal.)

And I operate my own shack through remote means when I travel.  And I have operated and worked DX from the shacks of other hams who had equipment a LOT better than mine (and it was juicy DX).  I say so what?  I was still at the mic/key, even if it was not my equipment.
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N3QVB
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 08:21:50 AM »

Thank you WI4P and WD4ELG for your replies.  I had no idea just how controversial this subject is.  Below is what I found on another website.  I suppose the debate continues.  Lots of opinions but no decisions regarding the rules.

"CONCLUSION. The DXAC believes the impact of remote operations on DXing and
Amateur radio in general is favorable and should be allowed to follow the path dictated
by innovation and technology. This activity is truly in the same pioneering and
technological spirit on which amateur radio began in the early days and has prospered
since. However, contacts made using remote stations that provide one DXCC participant
an advantage over another DXCC participant do not meet the fairness objectives of the
ARRL DXCC program, in our view. The majority of the members of the Committee
believe that this advantage, deemed a “propagation advantage”, is the basic problem with
remote operations as far as the DXCC program is concerned. "

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N3QVB
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 09:38:18 AM »

I re-read the DXAC's comments about the fairness objectives of the DXCC program.  If fairness/advantage is the litmus test and they exclude DXCC contacts made via remote operations, shouldn't they exclude contacts made using beams and amps?  Using their line of thinking, that puts operators that run barefoot with wire antennas at a distinct disadvantage.  Keep in mind I'm not advocating for that -- just pointing out what seems to be a gap in their logic.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 02:12:25 PM »

I think the difference is that the amp and beam are generally part of your station. Personally I don't see much fun in getting a DXCC using someone else's station. They might just as well offer DXCC for sale - what call sign would you like on it?  Grin

I question the legality of using "your call sign" when operating an Internet remote base. It seems to me that the station licensee's call sign should be used regardless of who the control operator is. The station licensee is the guy who has "physical access" to the equipment - not someone out in cyberspace somewhere.
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WD4ELG
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 10:31:35 AM »

AA4PB, you nailed it on the head!  That's the crux of the issue, is DXCC becoming something that is just "for sale"?  Not saying for operating my own station remotely, but a station like W7DXX).  When I operate W7DXX via remote, the FCC requires me to identify myself as WD4ELG.  But why have a DXCC award, if I am not operating it from my own station but someone else's for a modest fee?

Here's the flip side of the argument - as CC&R restrictions become more prevalent with time, and we become more restricted, the ability to operate remote may be the only way for some hams to pursue DX (or hamming at all!).  Without remote operation, will we have the same interest by hams (the same hams who are needed to contribute to the increasing costs of some of these DXpeditions?)

It IS a heated argument.  DXAC is not restricting it, but they feel it's not in the spirit of the award's intent.  Now, is there anyone on the honor roll who did it with someone else's remote base?  I seriously doubt it.  Honor roll requires so much time investment over many years, there's little way that any one individual would be able to get that much time on one of these remote stations offered for a modest feel.

DXCC through remote base?  Sure.  I can do DXCC from my mobile operation.  But Honor Roll?  Highly unlikely.  I think the concerns about remote operation undermining the DXCC award approach could be overblown.  I could be wrong, but I think it's a lot of smoke over a very small fire (just like the elimination of CW tests from the licensing process - it's a religious-energy-level-type of discussion...earth is flat versus earth is round argument with passions running high, but in the end the impact is not all that great.)
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AA4PB
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 11:43:45 AM »

"When I operate W7DXX via remote, the FCC requires me to identify myself as WD4ELG"

That's where I'm not clear. Part 97 says that there must be a "station licensee" who has "physical control" of the equipment. It seems to me that the call sign used would be that of the "station licensee". Now if you are sitting in front of a friend's station you could, in addition to being the "control operator", also function as the "station licensee" and use your call sign because you have "physical control" of the station.

If you are located 1000 miles away out in cyberspace somewhere renting time on someone else's station then you don't have "physical control" and thus cannot qualify as the "station licensee". The "station licensee" can designate you as the "control operator" but that means you must identify the station with the "station licensee's" call sign and yourself as the control operator.

Part 97 is not real clear on the issue because it doesn't define the terms used like what constitutes "physical control" or what callsigns are "authorized for the station". For example, does "physical control" mean simply that you click the mouse on the button that keys the transmitter or does it mean that you have the abiltiy to give the FCC access to inspect the station or that you can throw the main power breaker if something locks up - things that have traditionally been the responsibility of the station licensee.

I guess I'm comming from the "old days" when we operated from a friend's QTH we always IDed with his call sign and who was at the mike.

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K9AQ
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Posts: 54




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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2013, 04:40:25 PM »

An internet remote control station is no different than a VHf/UHF repeater.  When you operate a repeater you don't id with the station location ID, you use your call.  The repeater ID's itself every 10 minutes.  When we use an internet remote control station that isn't our own, like W7DXX, we ID with our call, and "operating W7DXX internet remote control". 

When I operate my own station using internet remote control, I don't have to ID that it is being controlled over the Internet.

Don
K9AQ
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AA4PB
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 05:25:19 PM »

The difference with a UHF/VHF repeater is that there are two transmitters involved. You ID your transmitter with your call and the repeater IDs its transmitter with its call. In the case of Internet remote there is only one transmitter involved - the remote base that belongs to the station licensee.

Internet remote would be exactly like sitting at the station except that in most cases you don't have "physical control" of the station. That's why I'm thinking that you need to ID the remote base using its call sign and identify yourself as the control operator.

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WD4ELG
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2013, 09:10:43 PM »

AA4PB, I think you and K9AQ both nailed it.  The correct way, if I am using W7DXX remote, is to id "This is WD4ELG operating the W7DXX station through remote control" (or like the old days, "This is WD4ELG at station W7DXX")

How to do that on CW?  No idea.   Grin
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N3QVB
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 03:36:05 PM »

Thanks for all the replies.  My post pertained to me operating another station (ie: W7DXX) via remote control, not operating my own from another location.  I was clear on how to ID myself, just unsure about the DXCC issue.

As for "physical control" of the station, remote users do have control.  They can adjust the VFO, use the antenna tuner and in some cases turn the beam -- all via remote control.  I guess it depends on one's definition of "physical".  Anyway, it's like everything else in this (or any) hobby.  If you like it -- do it.  If not -- don't.  Thanks again to all. 

 
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WB5ITT
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 04:05:50 PM »

The above comments are incorrect on remote control ID of the station. The remote station has a callsign and is the one that is supposed to be used (Look at the license). Operating a remotely controlled station and through a repeater IS different. Through a repeater, you are originating your signal on YOUR station under YOUR station license. Operating a REMOTE station means you are a control op of SOMEOME ELSE's station....no different than if you walked into their home and sat down at their station and proceeded to make contacts. The statement that was made that the FCC rules REQUIRE you to ID someone else's station as yours is incorrect. THE STATION license is issued to the owner of the equipment. When YOU operate it, there are specific rules that apply (Repeaters have their own rules). You are a control op, NOT the trustee of that station, thus the callsign given should be the trustee's NOT YOURS....There is supposed to be a copy of the license posted at the remote station location...is it yours? NO....It is NOT your station and you do NOT use your call on it UNLESS you operate it outside the trustee's class of license (IE You are an extra and operating a General's station on the Extra bands..you then ID "Your call ON" the remote station....such as WB5ITT via W5APX or similar)..The rules for remotely controlled (remote bases) have not changed much in 40years...technology has but that hasnt changed the rules...and they are what they are...
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AA4PB
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 04:23:21 PM »

As for "physical control" of the station, remote users do have control.  They can adjust the VFO, use the antenna tuner and in some cases turn the beam -- all via remote control. 

One of the requirements of the station licensee is that he can give access to the FCC to inspect the station equipment and records. Can remote users do that? Do they have a key to the door to let the FCC in? Do they even know the directions to get to the physical location? Since the FCC used the term "physical control" I assume that they mean more than just the ability to tune the radio via the Internet.
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AA4PB
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2013, 03:14:24 PM »

Well, I guess I am wrong by the current regulations. I just heard from ARRL legal and they say that the authorized control operator has the option of using either the call sign of the station owner (licensee) or his own personal call sign. There is not even an FCC requirement for him to identify the fact that he is using a remote base. Now other country rules may come into effect when either the remote base or the control operator is located outside of FCC control.

I suppose this all changed when the FCC stopped issuing station/operator licenses and started licensing only the operator.

I will keep quiet now  Cheesy
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