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Author Topic: Suggestions for a 100 Watt Class amplifier for a FLEX-1500?  (Read 27578 times)
W5JON
Member

Posts: 174




Ignore
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2013, 01:12:52 PM »

Hi,

I would appreciate a reply from "Zenki" to my questions.
(A) However in your reply, a negative voltage (battery reversed) is required for ALC, as the battery voltage faded constant adjustment would be required.
(B) As most operators are using transceivers, bypassing the "attenuator" would be required when in receive.

My questions to Zenki remain:
1. What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  
2. What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?
New 3. It has been stated on Eham that you are N2NEP, is that correct or not?

73,

John W5JON


There are two possible solutions to the IC706 ALC overshoot problem:

a) Use an external 1M pot and a 9V battery to provide a variable ALC voltage to the rig, use this as your power control. This overrides the ALC circuit and changes its characteristics

b) Always run the rig at 100% and use a power attenuator on the output to reduce it to the correct drive level.

Tanakasan


Zenki,

ABOVE YOU SAY:  "They will not even consider, supply voltage, saturation, ALC overshoot etc etc'.


Therefore, on your IC-706, what did you do to prevent the very well documented, full power leading edge spike? It is known when the IC-706 is adjusted down to the 10-50W (or so) needed to drive an amplifier, a several millisecond 100+ watt RF pulse is output on initial key down, this "power spike" is not caught by ALC. This is a major design fault with the ALC circuitry inside the ICOM IC-706 and many other ICOM and other transceivers.

What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?

John  W5JON
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:20:07 PM by W5JON » Logged
VA2PBJ
Member

Posts: 195




Ignore
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2013, 07:09:56 PM »

"ZENKI is not a ham. His name is listed at eham.net as Zenki Shingen which is not in the QRZ database."

This means nothing. My last call sign was never in there and my current one I had to enter it.
Logged

7 3 Peter VA2PBJ
WX7G
Member

Posts: 6220




Ignore
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2013, 04:19:30 AM »

Hams have asked since at least back to 2011 what Zenki's call sign is, but have been ignored by him.
Logged
AD5X
Member

Posts: 1437




Ignore
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2013, 04:55:15 AM »


Therefore, on your IC-706, what did you do to prevent the very well documented, full power leading edge spike? It is known when the IC-706 is adjusted down to the 10-50W (or so) needed to drive an amplifier, a several millisecond 100+ watt RF pulse is output on initial key down, this "power spike" is not caught by ALC. This is a major design fault with the ALC circuitry inside the ICOM IC-706 and many other ICOM and other transceivers.

What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?

John  W5JON

I made a series of measurements on an IC-706MKII (not the "G").  The leading edge spike on initial key-down was 140 watts, regardless of output power setting.  The spike duration was a bit less than 2ms.  After 2ms, the ALC controlled the output to whatever the set value was for about 5-seconds after I stopped sending.  So a pause longer than about 5-seconds results in another high-power spike.  IMD testing would show problems due to the spike only if you could capture the <2ms spike on initial key-down on the spectrum analyzer.

I also tried the external ALC/battery "fix".  This didn't work on my IC-706MKII.  I.e., it appears that the IC-706MKII only looks at ALC (either internal or external) only after immediately transmitting.  So the spike was there regardless of whether an external ALC voltage was applied or not.

Phil - AD5X

Logged
W5JON
Member

Posts: 174




Ignore
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2013, 06:31:47 AM »

Hi,

Thanks Phil for the information.

 As Zenki has been praised as an IMD expert, and posted a lengthy post on HIS testing of a RM Italy Amplifier, being driven by an ICOM IC-706, I wanted to know what HIS resolution was for the ALC Overshoot problems of the IC-706.

Given his statment in his post of the RM Italy/IC-706 testing, when speaking of OTHERS, he wrote, ""They will not even consider, supply voltage, saturation, ALC overshoot etc etc'".  Therefore I can not imagine that special attention would not be given to the IC-706 ALC problem during his tests. However thusfar Zenki has not replyed to my questions regarding HIS testing.

My questions to Zenki remain:
1. What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  
2. What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?
3. It has been stated on Eham that you are N2NEP, is that correct or not?

73,

John W5JON


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






Therefore, on your IC-706, what did you do to prevent the very well documented, full power leading edge spike? It is known when the IC-706 is adjusted down to the 10-50W (or so) needed to drive an amplifier, a several millisecond 100+ watt RF pulse is output on initial key down, this "power spike" is not caught by ALC. This is a major design fault with the ALC circuitry inside the ICOM IC-706 and many other ICOM and other transceivers.

What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?

John  W5JON

I made a series of measurements on an IC-706MKII (not the "G").  The leading edge spike on initial key-down was 140 watts, regardless of output power setting.  The spike duration was a bit less than 2ms.  After 2ms, the ALC controlled the output to whatever the set value was for about 5-seconds after I stopped sending.  So a pause longer than about 5-seconds results in another high-power spike.  IMD testing would show problems due to the spike only if you could capture the <2ms spike on initial key-down on the spectrum analyzer.

I also tried the external ALC/battery "fix".  This didn't work on my IC-706MKII.  I.e., it appears that the IC-706MKII only looks at ALC (either internal or external) only after immediately transmitting.  So the spike was there regardless of whether an external ALC voltage was applied or not.

Phil - AD5X


« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 06:38:20 AM by W5JON » Logged
KE3WD
Member

Posts: 5689




Ignore
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2013, 07:50:36 AM »

So there is an FCC regulation requiring a valid Amateur Radio License to post on an eham forum? 

Um, NO. 


73
Logged
K6AER
Member

Posts: 3530




Ignore
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »

Does make you wonder how he does his extensive on air testing? I wish I had a dollar for every ham that was splattering with a FCC certificated amplifier and radio...how is that possable?

For those of you who would like to hear the HLA-300 with an IC-7000 driver, I will on the air tonight at 14.185 +/- 10 at 1900 Mountain time from Colorado.... if the fire doesn't get me.
Logged
KE3WD
Member

Posts: 5689




Ignore
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2013, 01:21:27 PM »

sigh

Look, all "FCC certificated" has meant is that the damn thing can't be put on 10 or 11 meters without first performing the "mod"...
Logged
W5JON
Member

Posts: 174




Ignore
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2013, 03:15:18 PM »


ZENKI,

I sold both my ICOM IC-706 and IC-756PRO because I could not cure the "ALC Overshoot" problem in both. The ALC Overshoot power spike was causing constant tripout of my QRO Amplifier. Since replacing the ICOM with my FT-1000MkV I have never had another tripout. Per the below questions, I would be very interested to hear how you cured this problem in your ICOM IC-706.

John W5JON




Hi,

Thanks Phil for the information.

 As Zenki has been praised as an IMD expert, and posted a lengthy post on HIS testing of a RM Italy Amplifier, being driven by an ICOM IC-706, I wanted to know what HIS resolution was for the ALC Overshoot problems of the IC-706.

Given his statment in his post of the RM Italy/IC-706 testing, when speaking of OTHERS, he wrote, ""They will not even consider, supply voltage, saturation, ALC overshoot etc etc'".  Therefore I can not imagine that special attention would not be given to the IC-706 ALC problem during his tests. However thusfar Zenki has not replyed to my questions regarding HIS testing.

My questions to Zenki remain:
1. What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  
2. What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?
3. It has been stated on Eham that you are N2NEP, is this correct?

73,

John W5JON


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






Therefore, on your IC-706, what did you do to prevent the very well documented, full power leading edge spike? It is known when the IC-706 is adjusted down to the 10-50W (or so) needed to drive an amplifier, a several millisecond 100+ watt RF pulse is output on initial key down, this "power spike" is not caught by ALC. This is a major design fault with the ALC circuitry inside the ICOM IC-706 and many other ICOM and other transceivers.

What was your correction for this "spike" while testing the RM amplifier?  What was the IMD data result of this "power spike" before and after any correction while testing the RM amplifier?

John  W5JON

I made a series of measurements on an IC-706MKII (not the "G").  The leading edge spike on initial key-down was 140 watts, regardless of output power setting.  The spike duration was a bit less than 2ms.  After 2ms, the ALC controlled the output to whatever the set value was for about 5-seconds after I stopped sending.  So a pause longer than about 5-seconds results in another high-power spike.  IMD testing would show problems due to the spike only if you could capture the <2ms spike on initial key-down on the spectrum analyzer.

I also tried the external ALC/battery "fix".  This didn't work on my IC-706MKII.  I.e., it appears that the IC-706MKII only looks at ALC (either internal or external) only after immediately transmitting.  So the spike was there regardless of whether an external ALC voltage was applied or not.

Phil - AD5X


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K6AER
Member

Posts: 3530




Ignore
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2013, 08:38:39 PM »

Well Elecraft just announced their 5 watt to 100 watt amplifier the KXPA100.

http://www.elecraft.com/tmp/kxpa100.htm

Auto band switching, 160-6 meters with bar graph SWR and power  display. Optional ATU for $399.

Very nice unit that runs on 13.8 VDC.  Has FCC certification and RS-232 communication. It only cost $750.00
In looking at the specifications and reviewing the FCC certification I did not see an IMD specification.

Wonder what it might be…………………………………..
Logged
W5JON
Member

Posts: 174




Ignore
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2013, 09:43:28 PM »

Well Elecraft just announced their 5 watt to 100 watt amplifier the KXPA100.

http://www.elecraft.com/tmp/kxpa100.htm

Auto band switching, 160-6 meters with bar graph SWR and power  display. Optional ATU for $399.

Very nice unit that runs on 13.8 VDC.  Has FCC certification and RS-232 communication. It only cost $750.00
In looking at the specifications and reviewing the FCC certification I did not see an IMD specification.

Wonder what it might be…………………………………..






Hi Mike,

I have the Elecraft KPA500 that I use while on St. Kitts as V47JA and V49J and love it.

73,

John   W5JON  -  V47JA
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AD6KA
Member

Posts: 2238




Ignore
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2013, 08:55:32 AM »

Well Elecraft just announced their 5 watt to 100 watt amplifier the KXPA100.
<snip>

In looking at the specifications and reviewing the FCC certification I did not see an IMD specification.


There are no IMD specifications for FCC certification.
73,Ken  AD6KA
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K6AER
Member

Posts: 3530




Ignore
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2013, 12:15:27 PM »

I know that.

I was putting some fresh Zenki bait on the hook.



Nibble, nibble , nibble.....STRIKE!
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WA2ELZ
Member

Posts: 15




Ignore
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2013, 01:57:47 AM »

A review can be found http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1223?page=2
I am also looking to design/build my own amplifier for my direct sampling QS1R/E SDR. I need to first simulate the amplifier design using spice data. However, it is hard to find spice parameters or even scattering parameter (S) data for many RF power devices.  Manufactures no longer provide spice data for many of their products. Spice data may expose the guts of the device to reverse engineering techniques. Instead they use S parameters. Not just one point but may contain 100's of data points. Agilent makes advanced development software. Its very capable but very expensive. I do not know the price; but if any near AutoCAD prices, you will spend >6k. Bad news for the ham  Angry Ownership of the technology is getting harder to maintain.
I have several excellent simulators, but my favorite is LT spice. It is free from Linear Technology. I think spice simulation can greatly improve performance, or at least validate design limitations. The trouble is in the details. Using good simulation models could predict 2nd, 3rd in band harmonic performance and clear the air.   
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KE3WD
Member

Posts: 5689




Ignore
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2013, 05:06:39 AM »

Well Elecraft just announced their 5 watt to 100 watt amplifier the KXPA100.

http://www.elecraft.com/tmp/kxpa100.htm

Auto band switching, 160-6 meters with bar graph SWR and power  display. Optional ATU for $399.

Very nice unit that runs on 13.8 VDC.  Has FCC certification and RS-232 communication. It only cost $750.00
In looking at the specifications and reviewing the FCC certification I did not see an IMD specification.

Wonder what it might be…………………………………..



At seventy five dollars per watt, very likely not too many hams are going to care if the thing is cleaner than clean can be.  --And at 13.8, it probably isn't. 

I have found that if a spec is not listed, there is usually a reason that it got left out. 

For that kinda money, one couls simply pick up a used 100W YaeKenCom and pull the PA and filters out of the thing and still be ahead of the game. 

73
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