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Author Topic: Remote operation option?  (Read 19835 times)
W0MT
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Posts: 172




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« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2013, 08:36:33 AM »

Try 97.3(a)(4)

(4) Amateur service.
A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

Emphasis added.
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W0MT
Member

Posts: 172




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« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2013, 11:32:51 AM »

I though I would expand a little on the regulation concerning pecuniary interest. Back in the “good old days” Hams would often provide phone patches for US military members serving overseas. The military service member would go to the base Ham radio station and a CQ would be sent to Ham stations in the US. Often the CQ would include a geographical area of the US. If a contact was made and if the US Ham station had the necessary equipment for a phone patch, a phone call would be placed for the service member. Then a conversation could be initiated between the service member and whoever was contacted via the phone. If the US Ham didn’t have the ability for a phone patch, they would either place a call and relay a message or they would sign into one of the US based traffic nets and relay the message. The reason for all of this was the very high cost of international phone calls.

It was and still is absolutely prohibited for the Ham providing this service to charge even a penny. The Ham could not charge for electricity, equipment acquisition, maintenance, or anything else. The reason was this reg or its predecessor. In other words, a Ham may not have a pecuniary interest in the activities of Ham radio.

I see no difference in Hams charging for message handling and charging for the use of their equipment. In either case, it is a pecuniary interest which is prohibited.
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K5LXP
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Posts: 4492


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« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2013, 12:51:30 PM »

Try 97.3(a)(4)

(4) Amateur service.
A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.
Emphasis added.

In the current context, no funds are changing hands as a direct result of the intercommunication (contacts/traffic) that results from the rented facilities.  I don't see it as any different than when clubs rent commercial repeater sites and members pay dues to offset that.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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W0MT
Member

Posts: 172




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« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 01:23:58 PM »

Try 97.3(a)(4)

(4) Amateur service.
A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.
Emphasis added.

In the current context, no funds are changing hands as a direct result of the intercommunication (contacts/traffic) that results from the rented facilities.  I don't see it as any different than when clubs rent commercial repeater sites and members pay dues to offset that.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
If a Ham receives ANY money for Ham radio related activities then the Ham has a pecuniary interest. It makes absolutely no difference if the money is for renting out the equipment, for passing messages, or charging for tours of the shack.

Clubs are a little different. As long as the individual Hams don't personally get the money, it is probably alright. In any case, I don't think the FCC is going to go after a club but they might for an individual Ham.
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AC7DX
Member

Posts: 77




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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 02:25:43 PM »

I'd wondered, idly, if one could make a business offering remote operations for people who wanted a dream rig but lived under the domination of a HOA.

My best ideas are always taken, it seems.

- WX2S


I think I've already seen at least one business setup for remote operation but I'm not sure how well it's doing yet. Although this seems like a great idea, I have to wonder how ethical it would be in counting for DXCC or other awards. For example, lets say the remote station was in Florida and you lived in the Northern latitudes of Washington State like I do. From Florida you can work Africa, Europe, and the Middle East almost like they were next door all day long. Not so for us, especially over the pole. Should a contact made say with a YI (Iraq) station count for DXCC if the remote operation was about 2700 miles closer to the DX? My feeling is no, it shouldn't count.

However, if a group of hams or a person wanted to set something up locally and they were personally involved in the setup and operation of the remote station, I think I would be a bit more comfortable with that scenario. As you mentioned, it's getting more and more difficult to get away from HOA restrictions, especially for those who have limited choices on where they can live.

John K7KB

If you were on vacation and worked them via mobile, you would want it to count and it does.
As long as your in the USA 1-0..it should and does count..No difference between mobile and remote
73
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WB6BYU
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Posts: 13282




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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2013, 11:52:57 AM »

Quote from: AC7DX

If you were on vacation and worked them via mobile, you would want it to count and it does.
As long as your in the USA 1-0..it should and does count..No difference between mobile and remote



My understanding is that remote stations are NOT counted for DXCC and similar awards, though
the rules might have changed in that regard.




Quote from: W0MT

If a Ham receives ANY money for Ham radio related activities then the Ham has a pecuniary interest.



If that were the case it would be illegal for hams to be employed at HRO or Ten-Tec.

The rules have changed over the years.  If you read the wording of the actual regulations
in Part 97, they prohibit the operation of a ham radio station on behalf of your employer
(with certain exceptions.)  The prohibited activity is operating the station for profit,
not renting the use of the station.  In this case, the operator is not the person getting
paid. 

It's the same situation as if I wanted to rent out my old rig to a new ham for $5/month -
neither of use is getting paid to operate or pass messages.
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KH6DC
Member

Posts: 642




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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 01:25:02 PM »

Here's my interpretation of the DXCC rule but correct me if I'm wrong:

For example:

If a remote station with radio, amp and antenna is in North Korea and the operator is operating from California via remote, than this station does not qualify for DXCC credit.

However if there is a physical operator in North Korea and a station is making contact with North Korea from Africa via a remote station in Japan, the operator can get DXCC credit.
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73 and Aloha,
de Delwyn, KH6DC
W0MT
Member

Posts: 172




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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 01:34:30 PM »

Quote from: W0MT

If a Ham receives ANY money for Ham radio related activities then the Ham has a pecuniary interest.



If that were the case it would be illegal for hams to be employed at HRO or Ten-Tec.

The rules have changed over the years.  If you read the wording of the actual regulations
in Part 97, they prohibit the operation of a ham radio station on behalf of your employer
(with certain exceptions.)  The prohibited activity is operating the station for profit,
not renting the use of the station.  In this case, the operator is not the person getting
paid. 

It's the same situation as if I wanted to rent out my old rig to a new ham for $5/month -
neither of use is getting paid to operate or pass messages.

There is no regulatory requirement to hold a Ham license to work in HRO or Ten-Tek. The fact that a private company only hires or wants to hire Hams to work there does not mean it is an Amateur Service.      

Rules changed or not, 97.3(a)(4) reads as follows:

"Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest."

Do you know what a pecuniary interest is? It means receiving money or something of value for some action or inaction. It makes no difference if the money or something of value is less in value then the cost of the action or inaction.

It would be a close call if you rented your old rig to another Ham. The reason is a non-Ham could do the same thing–for example the surviving non-Ham spouse of a Ham operator could rent the equipment to someone else.

Setting up and operating a remotely controlled Ham station is a different matter. I suspect that anyone who does this has to be a licensed Ham. If that is the case, this makes it an Amateur service as defined by 97.3(a)(4). And if a Ham does set up a remotely controlled Ham station and then rents it to other Hams, that is a pecuniary interest and it is prohibited by 97.3(a)(4).
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WB6BYU
Member

Posts: 13282




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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2013, 04:09:52 PM »

While the basis and purpose clause gives an overview of the service, that clause alone
doesn't make anything legal or illegal.  The detailed rules spell out exactly what is permitted
and what isn't.  And the current wording of those rules do not in any way prohibit the
renting of equipment to other hams.

Your are right that there is no requirement that only hams work at HRO or Ten-Tec.
Similarly there is no such requirement to own ham equipment, or to set up a remote
station.  The only one who has to have a license is the operator, because he is the
one actually transmitting on the ham bands.

So it is the operator doing the communication who can not have a pecuniary
interest in the communications, not the person owning the station.
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K0IZ
Member

Posts: 737




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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2013, 05:03:25 AM »

Re DXCC, if operator is in same DXCC entity as the transmitter, that counts.  Otherwise no.
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