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Author Topic: K3 or ftdx3000  (Read 63412 times)
ZENKI
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Posts: 906




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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 02:34:27 AM »

They might try and deny it but its a reality thats going to happen. The K3 is already a SDR so they  have the skill set to build a direct sampling/DUC transceiver.

Closing off the possibility when in the long run this is the way forward into future seems silly. Who knows what next year is going to deliver. It may well be possible next year to build incredible low
phase noise synthesizers  and SDR receivers that kill the performance of the K3.  Look at the funcube dongle, a 200 dollar SDR receiver.  Saying that  its going to be  impossible to
build a direct sampling transceiver that  cant outperform a K3 is arrogance at its best and I am sure it will be words that the folks at Elecraft will be forced to eat.

Besides who cares if its Elecraft? If you noticed how the direct sampling market has developed, you noticed that its mostly non ham companies doing the innovation. The current ham companies are tired and seem to lack innovation.
They also cant  seem to see the potential that this technology  can bring to the ham radio service. Its then no surprise to see the traditional ham radio companies and this includes Elecraft being so closed minded about what is after all in all our futures. The dynamic range limit  of  SDR designs  will be broken its only a matter of when. If you look how SDR receivers are performing at the moment why would anyone want  such old hat technology?  Besides there is a silly game being  played about receiver numbers, numbers that we dont need and cant possibly realize. Hams are being played for suckers when it comes to the receiver numbers game.  I prefer a clean transmitter, good ergonomics and a good sounding  receiver with low inband IMD than a radio with high numbers that cant be used for anything but bragging rights.

What we need more of is SDR technology to deliver things like better noise blankers, beam steering/forming and  direction finding. These adaptive DSP  methods will open new worlds for us in antenna technology, propagation and antenna designs. We all need DUC technology with things like pre-distortion to clean up transmitters so we can use the receivers we have now with incredible dynamic range numbers, numbers we cant use because other hams transmitters are so dirty.

Besides the only way Elecraft can compete with a radio like the TS990S is  too produce a direct competitor using SDR/DUC technology. They cant beat the might of JVC Kenwood in producing  a radio like the TS990S which surely
is affecting their sales.If Elecraft produced a radio like the TS990S  it would cost double the cost of what the Kenwood sold for today. A direct sampling/DUC K4 could do all  of what the TS990S will do and   much more for far less money.

If Elecraft did not want to produce a direct sampling K4, they would silly if they did not build an improved K3 thats an all in one box. The K3/P3 with a 200 watt clean MOSFET amp with a big front panel would be a top selling radio.
This would fix up the K3's lack of appeal  for many other operators. Most operators that use my pair of K3's always say "nice but too small" They all want a big radio with big knob, a real hams radio.. Most of them have ordered the TS990S which is no surprise because it offers what most hams want. The minor advantage of receiver numbers in favor of the K3 is really inconsequential in the real world. So yes a all in one K3/P3 with a big box might be Elecrafts next  release rather than a direct sampling K4. But who cares, some other ham manufacturer will probably deliver a direct sampling /duc radio fairly shortly. If I had to take a bet I would say that manufacturer would be  Icom.  A direct sampling transceiver from Icom will deliver enough performance  margin over its current product range and deliver real world performance that is equivalent with the K3.

Its disappointing that  elecraft has shut the door on such a radio. Maybe Elecraft should negotiate and buy the ADAT transceiver rights and manufacture the ADAT radio with a 100 watt or 200 watt PA. I am sure that would be popular as
well. ADAT seems to be a  company thats not interested in broadening its marketing program. This is a shame because it would quickly convince a greater part of the amateur community to the advantages of direct sampling technology. Radio like the Flex6000 are overly expensive and dont meet the  needs of hams who want a box with knobs. If Flexradio produced a  Flex6000 in a box with a front panel it would be the most popular ham company on the planet. Unfortunately just like Elecraft is a  company that has a QRP/portable/small radio image and Flexradio a computer radio image they will always remain niche market players rather than main stream ham radio manufacturers. They will always remain so rightly or wrongly because they fail to understand  that the majority of ham radio operators are emotionally wedded to a big box sitting on their desks with knobs. Just as computer driven test instruments have failed to  attract engineers  so too  will ham radio companies fail if they persist trying to force hams down the path of forcing one to use a PC  to enable  you to use a ham transceiver. The PC should always be a useful accessory not the main interface to the box. I dont think I will be eating my words anytime soon, its just the ham radio market is and will always be.




Nothing heard yet.  All I see are rumors on the Elecraft reflector.

If this is in regard to a 'K4' design, Wayne killed that idea in March.
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Wait-For-The-K4-Direct-RF-Sampled-SDR-td7571211.html
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NO2A
Member

Posts: 739




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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 12:04:06 PM »

How to test a receiver: Participate in the ARRL 160 meter contest.
Especially if you`ll be operating anywhere near a strong local am broadcast tower.
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SWL2002
Member

Posts: 227




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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2013, 05:55:52 AM »

Nothing heard yet.  All I see are rumors on the Elecraft reflector.

If this is in regard to a 'K4' design, Wayne killed that idea in March.
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Wait-For-The-K4-Direct-RF-Sampled-SDR-td7571211.html

Wayne's statement about DDC/DUC architecture has much more to do with Wayne's ignorance of DDC/DUC architecture than reality.   Let's take a look at the Sherwood test results.  The K3 only exceeds the Perseus (a DDC receiver) in 2 kHz blocking when a 200 Hz filter is used in the K3.  For filters wider than 200 Hz, the K3 is INFERIOR.  Also look at the phase noise, which I consider much more important than the 2 kHz blocking.  The phase noise of the Perseus in far SUPERIOR to the K3.

I think some people will be surprised when the Flex 6000 is tested by Sherwood.  If Flex has designed a very low phase noise oscillator in the 6000, then the numbers with be far superior to the K3.  Years ago Flex stated that their QSD/Tayloe design was superior to the DDC architecture.  This was shown not to be true by the Perseus Sherwood test.  The Perseus was superior to all Flex products at the time.  Flex was smart to abandon their ignorant marketing driven bad mouthing of the DDC/DUC architecture and instead embrace it for their 6000 series.  Flex had to hire engineers because they did not have the in house expertise to do a DDC/DUC design themselves.  It obviously is the same issue with Elecraft.  They are stuck in past-think and make idiotic marketing driven comments like Wayne made about the inferiority of DDC/DUC designs.  Like Flex did in the past, Elecraft now has EGG ON THEIR FACES.

-robert
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AD9DX
Member

Posts: 1464




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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2013, 05:42:34 PM »

Nothing heard yet.  All I see are rumors on the Elecraft reflector.

If this is in regard to a 'K4' design, Wayne killed that idea in March.
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Wait-For-The-K4-Direct-RF-Sampled-SDR-td7571211.html

Wayne's statement about DDC/DUC architecture has much more to do with Wayne's ignorance of DDC/DUC architecture than reality.   Let's take a look at the Sherwood test results.  The K3 only exceeds the Perseus (a DDC receiver) in 2 kHz blocking when a 200 Hz filter is used in the K3.  For filters wider than 200 Hz, the K3 is INFERIOR.  Also look at the phase noise, which I consider much more important than the 2 kHz blocking.  The phase noise of the Perseus in far SUPERIOR to the K3.

I think some people will be surprised when the Flex 6000 is tested by Sherwood.  If Flex has designed a very low phase noise oscillator in the 6000, then the numbers with be far superior to the K3.  Years ago Flex stated that their QSD/Tayloe design was superior to the DDC architecture.  This was shown not to be true by the Perseus Sherwood test.  The Perseus was superior to all Flex products at the time.  Flex was smart to abandon their ignorant marketing driven bad mouthing of the DDC/DUC architecture and instead embrace it for their 6000 series.  Flex had to hire engineers because they did not have the in house expertise to do a DDC/DUC design themselves.  It obviously is the same issue with Elecraft.  They are stuck in past-think and make idiotic marketing driven comments like Wayne made about the inferiority of DDC/DUC designs.  Like Flex did in the past, Elecraft now has EGG ON THEIR FACES.

-robert

I'd hope the Perseus does better than the K3, it costs almost 8x what the K3 does.
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EX, KC9TRM, KB9IRZ
KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 446




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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2013, 01:25:46 AM »

Do some of you guys work in the PR departments of Japanese radio makers?   Shocked
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SWL2002
Member

Posts: 227




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2013, 03:31:53 AM »

Nothing heard yet.  All I see are rumors on the Elecraft reflector.

If this is in regard to a 'K4' design, Wayne killed that idea in March.
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Wait-For-The-K4-Direct-RF-Sampled-SDR-td7571211.html

Wayne's statement about DDC/DUC architecture has much more to do with Wayne's ignorance of DDC/DUC architecture than reality.   Let's take a look at the Sherwood test results.  The K3 only exceeds the Perseus (a DDC receiver) in 2 kHz blocking when a 200 Hz filter is used in the K3.  For filters wider than 200 Hz, the K3 is INFERIOR.  Also look at the phase noise, which I consider much more important than the 2 kHz blocking.  The phase noise of the Perseus in far SUPERIOR to the K3.

I think some people will be surprised when the Flex 6000 is tested by Sherwood.  If Flex has designed a very low phase noise oscillator in the 6000, then the numbers with be far superior to the K3.  Years ago Flex stated that their QSD/Tayloe design was superior to the DDC architecture.  This was shown not to be true by the Perseus Sherwood test.  The Perseus was superior to all Flex products at the time.  Flex was smart to abandon their ignorant marketing driven bad mouthing of the DDC/DUC architecture and instead embrace it for their 6000 series.  Flex had to hire engineers because they did not have the in house expertise to do a DDC/DUC design themselves.  It obviously is the same issue with Elecraft.  They are stuck in past-think and make idiotic marketing driven comments like Wayne made about the inferiority of DDC/DUC designs.  Like Flex did in the past, Elecraft now has EGG ON THEIR FACES.

-robert

I'd hope the Perseus does better than the K3, it costs almost 8x what the K3 does.

Better put on your reading glasses, the Perseus costs much less than a K3.  The Perseus sells for $999.99.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 03:34:31 AM by SWL2002 » Logged
SWL2002
Member

Posts: 227




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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2013, 03:33:38 AM »

Do some of you guys work in the PR departments of Japanese radio makers?   Shocked

Do you work in the PR department of Elecraft?
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KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 1970




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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2013, 10:49:16 AM »

Anytime you mention the K3 a bunch of owners descend to tell you why you should own one and why you will be sorry if you buy anything else.  Based on what the OP said he wanted in a radio he made the right choice. The K3 has one of the worst ergonomic designs with multiple button presses needed to access many of the regular features.  The K3 is also extremely expensive when you add up the price of all the little options that will make it equivalent to the Japan radios in that same league.  The K3 also has unremarkable TX audio and is not even close to a Kenwood or Icom. 

What the K3 does do really well is its RX section and that's great if that's priority one on your list if not look elsewhere for a radio.
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SWL2002
Member

Posts: 227




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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2013, 10:54:09 AM »

Anytime you mention the K3 a bunch of owners descend to tell you why you should own one and why you will be sorry if you buy anything else.  Based on what the OP said he wanted in a radio he made the right choice. The K3 has one of the worst ergonomic designs with multiple button presses needed to access many of the regular features.  The K3 is also extremely expensive when you add up the price of all the little options that will make it equivalent to the Japan radios in that same league.  The K3 also has unremarkable TX audio and is not even close to a Kenwood or Icom. 

What the K3 does do really well is its RX section and that's great if that's priority one on your list if not look elsewhere for a radio.


Elecraft accessories are also very expensive.  By the time you add all the other things you need, the K3 or KX3 skyrockets in price.  Not to mention that they are very ugly radios that look like they were assembled in some Ham's basement.
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AD9DX
Member

Posts: 1464




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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2013, 05:34:49 AM »

Anytime you mention the K3 a bunch of owners descend to tell you why you should own one and why you will be sorry if you buy anything else.  Based on what the OP said he wanted in a radio he made the right choice. The K3 has one of the worst ergonomic designs with multiple button presses needed to access many of the regular features.  The K3 is also extremely expensive when you add up the price of all the little options that will make it equivalent to the Japan radios in that same league.  The K3 also has unremarkable TX audio and is not even close to a Kenwood or Icom. 

What the K3 does do really well is its RX section and that's great if that's priority one on your list if not look elsewhere for a radio.


The K3's audio isn't bad at all. I think it gets a bad wrap because DXpedition ops are not going to spend the time to tweak it. The EQ does a great job and I get good audio reports even with the stock hand mic.
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EX, KC9TRM, KB9IRZ
AA9G
Member

Posts: 82




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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2013, 06:46:46 PM »



What the K3 does do really well is its RX section and that's great if that's priority one on your list if not look elsewhere for a radio.


The point exactly. You cannot work what you cannot hear. That's the whole reason I chose to buy one.
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Ex KC9EEV.
PD2R
Member

Posts: 131




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« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 01:20:12 AM »

I have a K3 but I couldn't care less what transceiver you use, as long as you are happy with it.

What I can't understand is why so much radio amateurs keep supporting those incredible arrogant Japanese manufacturers like Icom and Yaesu? You buy a transceiver that will set you back several thousand dollars but one you have a problem then it's your problem.
The new Icom IC 9100 has very bad power spikes. Do you know what Icom had to say about that? "Too bad, you should get an Icom amplifier". Really!?! Icom doesn't even have an amp for the 23 cm band!
And what about taking orders for that rig when it still took them nearly two(!) years to get the thing finished.

There much more examples of this arrogant attitude from Yaesu and Icom. How can anyone ignore this attitude give them their hard earned money?

I'm not saying that Elecraft or Ten Tec are perfect but they have a far better track records for customer support.
Having said that, I couldn't care less were a radio is manufactured and usually I'm not that impressed with American made products so it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact they are American manufacturers. I do however care about the manufacturers attitude towards customers.
To me, that is a huge factor to consider when spending you hard earned money on a new transceiver.


 
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KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 1970




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« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 06:26:15 PM »



What the K3 does do really well is its RX section and that's great if that's priority one on your list if not look elsewhere for a radio.


The point exactly. You cannot work what you cannot hear. That's the whole reason I chose to buy one.

What you are talking about with the receiver differences is so small that most hams will only find that difference paying off maybe once every couple of years.  On the other hand the ergonomics and the TX audio will be a problem every time you use the radio! Any slight gain the K3 may have in Rx can easily be debated but even if I give it the green flag it still cost so much more when you get so much less on everything else that your much better off spending the saved cash in a better antenna which will certainly make a much more profound difference in your Rx ability. 

On a Dxpedition that's getting a few free K3's to use I am sure its the perfect radio, it's compact it has a good Rx section and they don't give a crap about ergonomics when they are just planting the radio on one Freq for hours on end but for the home Dx enthusiast a broader set of considerations comes into play.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 07:15:55 PM by KD8MJR » Logged
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 1970




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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 07:48:12 PM »

I have a K3 but I couldn't care less what transceiver you use, as long as you are happy with it.

What I can't understand is why so much radio amateurs keep supporting those incredible arrogant Japanese manufacturers like Icom and Yaesu?
 

If it wasn't for Icom Yaesu and Kenwood and those "arrogant Japanese" where would Ham Radio be Today?    For the last 30 years who has been supplying us with 95% of the HF radios even when most large companies considered ham radio to be a dead hobby with no money making potential?  An who has been leading the charge in advancing the technology that we find in modern radios?

I have had no problems with Icom and service but of course not everyone has a positive experience.  My 7600 arrived in a dented box, the whole radio had slid forward out of the foam binding that held it centered and the tuning knob crashed through the card board of the inner box.  I checked out the Radio inside and out and everything was fine but I called Icom and let them know what had happened and emailed pictures.  They offered to exchange it if I wanted or they would double my warranty period and send me a new box.  I examined the radio again for hours and decided to take a new box and double warranty period.  I find that kind of service to be very good.
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PD2R
Member

Posts: 131




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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 11:38:13 PM »

Having been the main supplier for the last 30 years is probably the what makes them so arrogant today.
Do you know that Yaesu don't give warranty on their radio's? The warranty you get comes from the dealer you buy it from.
Personally, if my radio is broken I couldn't care less who picks up the bill, as long as I don't have to do it. But what does this tell about the manufacturer and them backing up their products?

Yes, I agree that the Jappanese manufacturers have been leading the charge in advancing the technology we find in our modern transceivers today, at least for the most part. However, that does not make it OK as to how they treat their customers today.
Once they sold you the goods, your on your own. Unless you have a good dealer of course like you seem to have.

I bought my K3 just months before Icom announced the IC-7600. For a long time I regretted my decision to go with the K3. Then I had the chance to try an IC-7600 myself for a couple of days. As impressed that I was with the IC-7700, the IC-7600 didn't do it for me. Maybe I didn't spend enough time playing with the settings or maybe the one I got was bad, I don't know. I have been fortunate to use several different top notch transceivers over the last couple of years and after using them I was always glad to return to my K3. The only thing I hate about it is the crapy looks of the thing and the feel of the knobs. Ergonomics are personal. You say Elecraft ergonomics suck, I personally like them a lot and find them very intuitive. Now try to change the power of your FTdx-3000 on sideband.
I do however see why a lot of people can't get used to the Elecrafts ergonomics. I love the ergonomics of some of the larger Yaesu products. The FTdx-5000 on that aspect really shines.
Coming from that the K3 can drive you crazy.

Fortunately their still are a couple of different manufacturers of amateur radio equipment so each and every one of us can choose whatever rig THEY find best.       

Have fun!
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