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Author Topic: K3 or ftdx3000  (Read 69908 times)
W1JKA
Member

Posts: 1773




Ignore
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2013, 03:52:04 AM »

According to OP KD2CJJ's last post (reply#7) and his QRZ bio/pic he is apparently satisfied with his choice of the Yaesu and has actually made one or two contacts with it, imagine that! I suspect the reason we have not heard from him again is because he is mostly on the air playing ham radio with his new rig rather than spending his time looking for his hip waders to replace his knee boots as the  tide of BS (previously indicated) continues to rise. Long live the eham forum TRADITION.
Logged
AD9DX
Member

Posts: 1493




Ignore
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2013, 05:19:54 AM »

It troubles me that some members seem to think it is BS that some of us K3 owners are thrilled with our radios. If you are happy with your rig regardless of what it is, I am happy for you.
Logged

EX, KC9TRM, KB9IRZ
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 2535




Ignore
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2013, 01:30:46 PM »

Being thrilled with your K3 is fine, I think everyone can respect that!   I am thrilled with my Icom 7600 but the difference between some of you K3 guys and everyone else is that you honestly think you have the Best Radios on the Planet when everyone that has not been drinking from the Elecraft Kool-aid knows that's complete BS.

I stopped posting serious replies to this thread when the talk became that the K3 was better than the 990.  I mean come on folks give Kenwood their time in the Sun and stop the BS!  Kenwood enthusiasts have waited for 10+ years for Kenwood to make a really good modern Rig and now that they come out with the 590 and the 990 you guys are going to rain on their parade with BS talk about the K3 being better than a 990.
Logged
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 2535




Ignore
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2013, 03:22:15 PM »


What's interesting is that all the complaints about the K3's "terrible SSB performance" have merely been fluff, without much if any data to back them up.  Upon what have people been basing these opinions?

The K3 has perfectly respectable SSB TX figures according to the published reviews.  In another thread on this site one of the two unidentified posters in this thread made claims as to the K3's low SSB performance, citing figures that were far below the actual lab tests.  When confronted with his lies, the poster chose to slink away rather than being honorable and correcting his error.  This same poster has been here in this thread, making bizarre claims that can't actually be supported by data, and appealing to emotion.

Look at the figures and make up your mind.  The actual figures, not those being pushed on this board by unidentified reputation managers.

I was hoping not to revist this but I realize you are trying to make one last point in order to sway any future newbies that you actually had a point, so they go out and get a K3.


The “terrible SSB performance of the K3” does not need to be based on numbers it’s based on my EARS and many other peoples ears!   What’s so hard to understand about that?  People listen to a K3 receiving SSB and they know it sucks based on what they are hearing.  And yes I have adjusted the hell out of everything that I could find in the Labyrinthine of settings and it still was really poor sounding very Harsh SSB.

As for the SSB TX Audio, as I stated before its “Unremarkable” it has no punch or anything great about it. (and once again Yes I adjusted the Radio)

Lastly, you constantly talk about the figures but I think you really have no clue what the Figures mean in the real world and neither do I.

Since this is the Station Building section of the Forum I figure there are a lot of new Hams hanging around here so it seems appropriate to give an example they will appreciate.

Almost every new Ham Operator at some point or the other hears a really loud station and hears “I am running 1500 watts” and then the new Ham gets the Notion in his heads and thinks “Wow wouldn’t it be fantastic to have a 6000 Watt Amp”.  This idea sounds so good even after you hear that 6Kw is just 6db better than a 1.5Kw Amp.
The dream of what the 6KW amp can do suddenly comes to a sudden death when some Ham informs you that 6db = 1 S-Unit and all it truly means is that with 6Kw you will get a 1 S-Unit increase in signal.  So wow my signal goes from 57 to 58 over in Japan!!!  That doesn’t sound like much and suddenly all interest dies because you just know how impractical the whole thing would be, assuming it was even legal to do.

The use of dB’s can be very misleading, especially when used in the negative quantity.  First of all it’s very hard to accurately measure the numbers and the even harder to know what a few dB’s of change actually mean in the real world especially when you factor in noise floor and a whole bunch of other factors.

Look at these examples.

The Sherwood Numbers Aka The Gospel according to Elecraft.
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

Now compare them to Numbers from QST
http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.htm

Both charts are sorted by the 2Khz Dynamic Range but notice the huge differences.

I personally don’t give any of these charts much credence because I don’t have a clue as to how accurate the equipment is that took the measurements and when it was last Calibrated and who did the calibration.  So both these numbers can be off wildly.
They are certainly wildly off from each other. Wink

Secondly Bob who publishes the Sherwood numbers is only interested in one specific thing and that’s how well a Radio operates in super big tightly packed CW Pileups.  Everything else for him is secondary hence why he sorts the list with the 2Khz spacing.  In fact IMO he should be sorting it by Overall filter numbers (Filter Ultimate Column)
That’s much more relevant for judging how a radio will perform.

 I have run some informal tests while trying to break through large CW pileups and IMO more important than anything else is the Speed that you can send at.  Yep it sounds strange but I have proven it on a number of occasions.
If you think about it from the view point of a operator on a rare Dxpedition the question is do you answer the guy who is saying “K…..D…..8…..M……J……R” at 18 WPM or the guy who is sending it at 35 WPM (Half the time).  I don’t have this ability but I can use my Icom RS-BA1 software which sends perfect CW.   In tests I have run during huge DXpedition pileups the operators almost never reply when I send at slower than 20 WPM and they almost always respond when I go up to 30WPM.  

 It makes sense, the CW Dxpedition operators are some of the best on the planet they are very comfortable talking at 35-40+ WPM and they hate it when some one is taking forever to bang out something at 20WPM.   So while you are putting out your call at 20 they are hearing a guy in the background zipping in at 35 WPM and before you even finish they have already started replying to him.

Anyway my point of this long winded post is that after you look at all the numbers for the K3 and if you believe them, the fact is that all it’s saying is that the K3 is really good at rejecting adjacent CW signals in large pileups and IMO that’s like saying this model car has a really Good AC system. If you want to buy a car based on that or say it’s the best based on that then go ahead.

IMO when picking a radio you need to first think of what you want to do with it and then look at the features the Radio has to offer that help you accomplish that goal.  If your need is simply to be waiting around for that really rare one to appear on CW and you are very proficient at CW then the K3 is your radio. If not look for something that does not compromise all the other aspects just to do one thing well.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 03:30:12 PM by KD8MJR » Logged
NZ0T
Member

Posts: 74




Ignore
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2013, 04:20:33 PM »


What's interesting is that all the complaints about the K3's "terrible SSB performance" have merely been fluff, without much if any data to back them up.  Upon what have people been basing these opinions?

The K3 has perfectly respectable SSB TX figures according to the published reviews.  In another thread on this site one of the two unidentified posters in this thread made claims as to the K3's low SSB performance, citing figures that were far below the actual lab tests.  When confronted with his lies, the poster chose to slink away rather than being honorable and correcting his error.  This same poster has been here in this thread, making bizarre claims that can't actually be supported by data, and appealing to emotion.

Look at the figures and make up your mind.  The actual figures, not those being pushed on this board by unidentified reputation managers.

I was hoping not to revist this but I realize you are trying to make one last point in order to sway any future newbies that you actually had a point, so they go out and get a K3.


The “terrible SSB performance of the K3” does not need to be based on numbers it’s based on my EARS and many other peoples ears!   What’s so hard to understand about that?  People listen to a K3 receiving SSB and they know it sucks based on what they are hearing.  And yes I have adjusted the hell out of everything that I could find in the Labyrinthine of settings and it still was really poor sounding very Harsh SSB.

As for the SSB TX Audio, as I stated before its “Unremarkable” it has no punch or anything great about it. (and once again Yes I adjusted the Radio)

Lastly, you constantly talk about the figures but I think you really have no clue what the Figures mean in the real world and neither do I.

Since this is the Station Building section of the Forum I figure there are a lot of new Hams hanging around here so it seems appropriate to give an example they will appreciate.

Almost every new Ham Operator at some point or the other hears a really loud station and hears “I am running 1500 watts” and then the new Ham gets the Notion in his heads and thinks “Wow wouldn’t it be fantastic to have a 6000 Watt Amp”.  This idea sounds so good even after you hear that 6Kw is just 6db better than a 1.5Kw Amp.
The dream of what the 6KW amp can do suddenly comes to a sudden death when some Ham informs you that 6db = 1 S-Unit and all it truly means is that with 6Kw you will get a 1 S-Unit increase in signal.  So wow my signal goes from 57 to 58 over in Japan!!!  That doesn’t sound like much and suddenly all interest dies because you just know how impractical the whole thing would be, assuming it was even legal to do.

The use of dB’s can be very misleading, especially when used in the negative quantity.  First of all it’s very hard to accurately measure the numbers and the even harder to know what a few dB’s of change actually mean in the real world especially when you factor in noise floor and a whole bunch of other factors.

Look at these examples.

The Sherwood Numbers Aka The Gospel according to Elecraft.
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

Now compare them to Numbers from QST
http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.htm

Both charts are sorted by the 2Khz Dynamic Range but notice the huge differences.

I personally don’t give any of these charts much credence because I don’t have a clue as to how accurate the equipment is that took the measurements and when it was last Calibrated and who did the calibration.  So both these numbers can be off wildly.
They are certainly wildly off from each other. Wink

Secondly Bob who publishes the Sherwood numbers is only interested in one specific thing and that’s how well a Radio operates in super big tightly packed CW Pileups.  Everything else for him is secondary hence why he sorts the list with the 2Khz spacing.  In fact IMO he should be sorting it by Overall filter numbers (Filter Ultimate Column)
That’s much more relevant for judging how a radio will perform.

 I have run some informal tests while trying to break through large CW pileups and IMO more important than anything else is the Speed that you can send at.  Yep it sounds strange but I have proven it on a number of occasions.
If you think about it from the view point of a operator on a rare Dxpedition the question is do you answer the guy who is saying “K…..D…..8…..M……J……R” at 18 WPM or the guy who is sending it at 35 WPM (Half the time).  I don’t have this ability but I can use my Icom RS-BA1 software which sends perfect CW.   In tests I have run during huge DXpedition pileups the operators almost never reply when I send at slower than 20 WPM and they almost always respond when I go up to 30WPM.  

 It makes sense, the CW Dxpedition operators are some of the best on the planet they are very comfortable talking at 35-40+ WPM and they hate it when some one is taking forever to bang out something at 20WPM.   So while you are putting out your call at 20 they are hearing a guy in the background zipping in at 35 WPM and before you even finish they have already started replying to him.

Anyway my point of this long winded post is that after you look at all the numbers for the K3 and if you believe them, the fact is that all it’s saying is that the K3 is really good at rejecting adjacent CW signals in large pileups and IMO that’s like saying this model car has a really Good AC system. If you want to buy a car based on that or say it’s the best based on that then go ahead.

IMO when picking a radio you need to first think of what you want to do with it and then look at the features the Radio has to offer that help you accomplish that goal.  If your need is simply to be waiting around for that really rare one to appear on CW and you are very proficient at CW then the K3 is your radio. If not look for something that does not compromise all the other aspects just to do one thing well.


Why so much hate?  You don't like the K3, we get that!  Don't buy one, OK?  Thousands of satisfied amateurs have bought and enjoy the K3.  It's OK if you don't like the K3 but your one man crusade against Elecraft products is beyond tiresome. 
Logged
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 2535




Ignore
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2013, 04:55:10 PM »

Why so much hate?  You don't like the K3, we get that!  Don't buy one, OK?  Thousands of satisfied amateurs have bought and enjoy the K3.  It's OK if you don't like the K3 but your one man crusade against Elecraft products is beyond tiresome.  

Have you read the whole of this thread before posting?
If you did you would realize this has nothing to do with me Hating the K3 it has to do with the argument that some K3 owners have been using that the K3 is the Best Radio Made Period.
My argument along with many others is that it's a very good CW rig and thats about it.  

NZ0T Since you made your posistion clear in post #59 with the statment: "For me the choice of a K3 over an overpriced, unnecessarily huge, poorly supported Japanese rig was easy".
I think it's easy to see why you would think my post is tiresome.  May I suggest if your tired of the argument that you just stop reading this thread and move on?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:03:21 PM by KD8MJR » Logged
KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 471




Ignore
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2013, 01:24:26 AM »

Being thrilled with your K3 is fine, I think everyone can respect that!   I am thrilled with my Icom 7600 but the difference between some of you K3 guys and everyone else is that you honestly think you have the Best Radios on the Planet when everyone that has not been drinking from the Elecraft Kool-aid knows that's complete BS.

I stopped posting serious replies to this thread when the talk became that the K3 was better than the 990.  I mean come on folks give Kenwood their time in the Sun and stop the BS!  Kenwood enthusiasts have waited for 10+ years for Kenwood to make a really good modern Rig and now that they come out with the 590 and the 990 you guys are going to rain on their parade with BS talk about the K3 being better than a 990.

The numbers don't lie, your ears do.  Hard test data beats anecdotes any time - this is why rockets are built using math and science and not hunches.

Still, your fancy Japanese rigs have more buttons, and weigh a lot more, I'll give you that.
Logged
W1JKA
Member

Posts: 1773




Ignore
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2013, 03:00:50 AM »

If or when the debate ends please post date/time of poll booth opening.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 03:06:55 AM by W1JKA » Logged
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 2535




Ignore
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2013, 11:40:16 AM »

The numbers don't lie, your ears do.  Hard test data beats anecdotes any time - this is why rockets are built using math and science and not hunches.

Still, your fancy Japanese rigs have more buttons, and weigh a lot more, I'll give you that.

Yes I think your right that's why I always believe the unemployment numbers the housing numbers and all the numbers that the government and companies put out.

BTW which one of these numbers are the truth?

The Sherwood
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

or the QST numbers?
http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.htm

My Lying ears need to know which one they can believe Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 11:45:47 AM by KD8MJR » Logged
AD9DX
Member

Posts: 1493




Ignore
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »

The numbers don't lie, your ears do.  Hard test data beats anecdotes any time - this is why rockets are built using math and science and not hunches.

Still, your fancy Japanese rigs have more buttons, and weigh a lot more, I'll give you that.

Yes I think your right that's why I always believe the unemployment numbers the housing numbers and all the numbers that the government and companies put out.

BTW which one of these numbers are the truth?

The Sherwood
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

or the QST numbers?
http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.htm

My Lying ears need to know which one they can believe Roll Eyes


What numbers are you seeing big differences in?
Logged

EX, KC9TRM, KB9IRZ
KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 471




Ignore
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2013, 03:11:30 PM »

The numbers don't lie, your ears do.  Hard test data beats anecdotes any time - this is why rockets are built using math and science and not hunches.

Still, your fancy Japanese rigs have more buttons, and weigh a lot more, I'll give you that.

Yes I think your right that's why I always believe the unemployment numbers the housing numbers and all the numbers that the government and companies put out.

BTW which one of these numbers are the truth?

The Sherwood
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

or the QST numbers?
http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.htm

My Lying ears need to know which one they can believe Roll Eyes


I trust Sherwood's numbers more than I trust the ARRL's.  The ARRL is used to that fat advertising cash from the Japanese rig makers (1/2 the pages in any given magazine are ads from Japanese rig makers) and Sherwood has offered much criticism of the ARRL's testing methodology, exposing the flaws in their tests and eventually forcing them to modernize lest they not be taken seriously at all.  He's serious, and he doesn't need any advertising money - after all he makes most of his cash selling mods for the Drake R4C.
Logged
AD9DX
Member

Posts: 1493




Ignore
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2013, 04:52:50 PM »

I would agree that Bob's testing methods are a bit more refined and unbiased than the ARRLs.  And I would say that regardless of the rig that I own. 
Logged

EX, KC9TRM, KB9IRZ
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 2535




Ignore
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2013, 04:55:00 PM »

What numbers are you seeing big differences in?

Lots of the numbers are different. Just look!

Anyway folks as I said these tests mean nothing, as your other friend pointed out he trusts Sherwood more than Arrl even though there is no reason to trust either of them since they don't show the Certificates of calibration for any of their equipment and I am yet to even see what equipment they are using to run these tests.  That's a must if your going to publish these kinds of tests for the public to see.
And as I said before even if by some miracle one of the lists is accurate, it does not translate into anything much in the real world just like a 6Kw amp is not much different than a 1.5Kw amp.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 05:12:30 PM by KD8MJR » Logged
KD2CJJ
Member

Posts: 369




Ignore
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2013, 06:48:59 AM »

LoL.... I actually have been!!!!  I love the radio!   I am amazed how sensitive and quiet the receiver is.  I get frequent compliments on the audio also.  Since this post I have 50 new countries... The toughest and for sure I would not have captured with without this receiver was South Sudan.  It was a S3 barely audible with the local noise floor but very copyable.   Generally I have no complaints.  I have a few gripes but are all focus on the controls...none on performance or configurability.  I am also avid worker of digital  and love the simple integration with the computer and lastly love the IF out with my pan adapter.. The band scope adds a nice touch...the rig band scope is not completely useless but close to it..it needs work.

I am very happy with the purchase..

I had a chance to play with a friends K3...though its great quality I see why some comments on audio quality for ssb aren't favorable.. Very tinny ear piercing...the ftdx is very natural sounding..I suspect though it could be the k3 speaker or placement of the speaker.




According to OP KD2CJJ's last post (reply#7) and his QRZ bio/pic he is apparently satisfied with his choice of the Yaesu and has actually made one or two contacts with it, imagine that! I suspect the reason we have not heard from him again is because he is mostly on the air playing ham radio with his new rig rather than spending his time looking for his hip waders to replace his knee boots as the  tide of BS (previously indicated) continues to rise. Long live the eham forum TRADITION.
Logged

73

Mike
KD2CJJ
SWL2002
Member

Posts: 346




Ignore
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2013, 01:18:47 PM »


What's interesting is that all the complaints about the K3's "terrible SSB performance" have merely been fluff, without much if any data to back them up.  Upon what have people been basing these opinions?

The K3 has perfectly respectable SSB TX figures according to the published reviews.  In another thread on this site one of the two unidentified posters in this thread made claims as to the K3's low SSB performance, citing figures that were far below the actual lab tests.  When confronted with his lies, the poster chose to slink away rather than being honorable and correcting his error.  This same poster has been here in this thread, making bizarre claims that can't actually be supported by data, and appealing to emotion.

Look at the figures and make up your mind.  The actual figures, not those being pushed on this board by unidentified reputation managers.

I was hoping not to revist this but I realize you are trying to make one last point in order to sway any future newbies that you actually had a point, so they go out and get a K3.


The “terrible SSB performance of the K3” does not need to be based on numbers it’s based on my EARS and many other peoples ears!   What’s so hard to understand about that?  People listen to a K3 receiving SSB and they know it sucks based on what they are hearing.  And yes I have adjusted the hell out of everything that I could find in the Labyrinthine of settings and it still was really poor sounding very Harsh SSB.

As for the SSB TX Audio, as I stated before its “Unremarkable” it has no punch or anything great about it. (and once again Yes I adjusted the Radio)

Lastly, you constantly talk about the figures but I think you really have no clue what the Figures mean in the real world and neither do I.

Since this is the Station Building section of the Forum I figure there are a lot of new Hams hanging around here so it seems appropriate to give an example they will appreciate.

Almost every new Ham Operator at some point or the other hears a really loud station and hears “I am running 1500 watts” and then the new Ham gets the Notion in his heads and thinks “Wow wouldn’t it be fantastic to have a 6000 Watt Amp”.  This idea sounds so good even after you hear that 6Kw is just 6db better than a 1.5Kw Amp.
The dream of what the 6KW amp can do suddenly comes to a sudden death when some Ham informs you that 6db = 1 S-Unit and all it truly means is that with 6Kw you will get a 1 S-Unit increase in signal.  So wow my signal goes from 57 to 58 over in Japan!!!  That doesn’t sound like much and suddenly all interest dies because you just know how impractical the whole thing would be, assuming it was even legal to do.

The use of dB’s can be very misleading, especially when used in the negative quantity.  First of all it’s very hard to accurately measure the numbers and the even harder to know what a few dB’s of change actually mean in the real world especially when you factor in noise floor and a whole bunch of other factors.

Look at these examples.

The Sherwood Numbers Aka The Gospel according to Elecraft.
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

Now compare them to Numbers from QST
http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.htm

Both charts are sorted by the 2Khz Dynamic Range but notice the huge differences.

I personally don’t give any of these charts much credence because I don’t have a clue as to how accurate the equipment is that took the measurements and when it was last Calibrated and who did the calibration.  So both these numbers can be off wildly.
They are certainly wildly off from each other. Wink

Secondly Bob who publishes the Sherwood numbers is only interested in one specific thing and that’s how well a Radio operates in super big tightly packed CW Pileups.  Everything else for him is secondary hence why he sorts the list with the 2Khz spacing.  In fact IMO he should be sorting it by Overall filter numbers (Filter Ultimate Column)
That’s much more relevant for judging how a radio will perform.

 I have run some informal tests while trying to break through large CW pileups and IMO more important than anything else is the Speed that you can send at.  Yep it sounds strange but I have proven it on a number of occasions.
If you think about it from the view point of a operator on a rare Dxpedition the question is do you answer the guy who is saying “K…..D…..8…..M……J……R” at 18 WPM or the guy who is sending it at 35 WPM (Half the time).  I don’t have this ability but I can use my Icom RS-BA1 software which sends perfect CW.   In tests I have run during huge DXpedition pileups the operators almost never reply when I send at slower than 20 WPM and they almost always respond when I go up to 30WPM.  

 It makes sense, the CW Dxpedition operators are some of the best on the planet they are very comfortable talking at 35-40+ WPM and they hate it when some one is taking forever to bang out something at 20WPM.   So while you are putting out your call at 20 they are hearing a guy in the background zipping in at 35 WPM and before you even finish they have already started replying to him.

Anyway my point of this long winded post is that after you look at all the numbers for the K3 and if you believe them, the fact is that all it’s saying is that the K3 is really good at rejecting adjacent CW signals in large pileups and IMO that’s like saying this model car has a really Good AC system. If you want to buy a car based on that or say it’s the best based on that then go ahead.

IMO when picking a radio you need to first think of what you want to do with it and then look at the features the Radio has to offer that help you accomplish that goal.  If your need is simply to be waiting around for that really rare one to appear on CW and you are very proficient at CW then the K3 is your radio. If not look for something that does not compromise all the other aspects just to do one thing well.


Why so much hate?  You don't like the K3, we get that!  Don't buy one, OK?  Thousands of satisfied amateurs have bought and enjoy the K3.  It's OK if you don't like the K3 but your one man crusade against Elecraft products is beyond tiresome. 

I don't see one bit of hate in KD8MJR's post.  I see some well reasoned arguments.  IF ANYONE is spreading hate, its you NZ0T, to anyone who does not fawn all over the K3.
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