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Author Topic: The average speed for CWing  (Read 40895 times)
KB1WSY
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Posts: 813




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« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2014, 07:25:16 PM »

Martin, perhaps it's time to dump the Koch method?  It looks as if it's letting you step forward two steps and jerking you back at least one step.  Any kind of process like this, to me, is questionable. 

However, if you insist on staying with Koch  fine.  I wish you the best.  Only you can determine what is best for you.

The rest of us can offer only what we've learned. 

73


Al - K8AXW

And I thank you very much for it. I'm sticking with Koch for the time being ... we'll see how it goes.
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W7UUU
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Posts: 11


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« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2014, 10:05:18 AM »


[/quote]

And I thank you very much for it. I'm sticking with Koch for the time being ... we'll see how it goes.
[/quote]

Hey there Martin!

Good luck in your continuing CW pursuits.  I ragchew around 22, with Farnsworth spacing (my keyers
are all set for a 4:1 ratio instead of 3:1, which I pretty much hate!).  For contesting, it just depends
on the contest.  If a detailed exchange is required (S/N mostly) I keep it to about 30 WPM.  But for
easier exchanges (callsign + 599) I easily run up around 40 with no issues.

Dave
W7UUU
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My site: www.W7UUU.net - "it's not all about yew, ewe, you!"
NI0C
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Posts: 2437




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« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2014, 10:58:08 AM »

Quote
  I ragchew around 22, with Farnsworth spacing (my keyers
are all set for a 4:1 ratio instead of 3:1, which I pretty much hate!).

Interesting to hear that you don't like standard spacing either within your characters or between characters!  Lots of luck in finding people to talk with.
73,
Chuck  NI0C
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KB1WSY
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Posts: 813




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« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2014, 03:34:07 PM »

Quote
 I ragchew around 22, with Farnsworth spacing (my keyers
are all set for a 4:1 ratio instead of 3:1, which I pretty much hate!).

Interesting to hear that you don't like standard spacing either within your characters or between characters!  Lots of luck in finding people to talk with.
73,
Chuck  NI0C

For what it's worth, in my sending practice as a Morse newbie (on a straight key) I find it very hard to get even close to 3:1. It's either way above, or way below, and it varies within characters. If the character ends with a dah, I tend to make that dah much longer than the others (I've been analyzing it with software that gives a graphical picture).

I'm in the process of setting up a system where I can hear "perfect code" in one ear of my headphones, and have the code oscillator in the other ear. I'll try to "emulate" that "perfect code."

73 de Martin, KB1WSY

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W7UUU
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« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2014, 08:46:16 PM »

Quote
  I ragchew around 22, with Farnsworth spacing (my keyers
are all set for a 4:1 ratio instead of 3:1, which I pretty much hate!).

Interesting to hear that you don't like standard spacing either within your characters or between characters!  Lots of luck in finding people to talk with.
73,
Chuck  NI0C

Huh??? are you saying 4:1 you can't copy, and criticizing ME?  WOW.

Been doing CW at 22-30 WPM for forty years.  I have more QSOs in CW in my log
than any other mode.

Don't be rude.  You know NOTHING about me.

Dave
W7UUU
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My site: www.W7UUU.net - "it's not all about yew, ewe, you!"
NI0C
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Posts: 2437




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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2014, 04:08:16 AM »

Quote
 I ragchew around 22, with Farnsworth spacing (my keyers
are all set for a 4:1 ratio instead of 3:1, which I pretty much hate!).

Interesting to hear that you don't like standard spacing either within your characters or between characters!  Lots of luck in finding people to talk with.
73,
Chuck  NI0C

For what it's worth, in my sending practice as a Morse newbie (on a straight key) I find it very hard to get even close to 3:1. It's either way above, or way below, and it varies within characters. If the character ends with a dah, I tend to make that dah much longer than the others (I've been analyzing it with software that gives a graphical picture).

I'm in the process of setting up a system where I can hear "perfect code" in one ear of my headphones, and have the code oscillator in the other ear. I'll try to "emulate" that "perfect code."

73 de Martin, KB1WSY


Your efforts to send "perfect" code using the straight key are commendable, and it sounds like you have found a clever way to practice this.
73,
Chuck  NI0C
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NI0C
Member

Posts: 2437




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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2014, 04:21:39 AM »

Quote
  I ragchew around 22, with Farnsworth spacing (my keyers
are all set for a 4:1 ratio instead of 3:1, which I pretty much hate!).

Interesting to hear that you don't like standard spacing either within your characters or between characters!  Lots of luck in finding people to talk with.
73,
Chuck  NI0C

Huh??? are you saying 4:1 you can't copy, and criticizing ME?  WOW.

Been doing CW at 22-30 WPM for forty years.  I have more QSOs in CW in my log
than any other mode.

Don't be rude.  You know NOTHING about me.

Dave
W7UUU
No, I can copy just about anything that people want to send as code.  If what you mean by Farnsworth are code characters sent at a certain speed, with long pauses between characters, then I find that excruciating to listen to.  I understand that many people learn code that way, but it doesn't sound good on the air.

Additionally, setting up an electronic keyer with a non-standard ratio of dash to dot may help you achieve a desire to be non-conformist, but I'd suggest that Morse code timing is not the best place to express your individuality.

73,
Chuck  NI0C
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KB1WSY
Member

Posts: 813




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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2014, 04:31:11 AM »

Your efforts to send "perfect" code using the straight key are commendable, and it sounds like you have found a clever way to practice this.
73,
Chuck  NI0C

This technique is described in Chapter 9 of "The Art and Skill of Radiotelegraphy":

It is, of course, impossible to send absolutely perfect code [using a straight key] ... but we should learn to imitate perfect sending as best we can. If you have an instructor, he should demonstrate quality sending for you.... Another way, which can be used without a teacher, is to use split headphones: one phone carries the recorded code signals, while the other phone lets the student hear his own sending using an oscillator as he reads from a printed copy of the recorded text. He endeavors to send in unison, and can compare his own sending with that of the recording.

I haven't set it up yet, but it's an easy rewiring job that won't take more than a few minutes.

I find that sending is deceptively "easy" to learn especially if you are doing it on your own. But when I then use software to analyze my timing and the dit/dah ratio, it's pretty awful. It's not worse than some of what I hear on the air. But I've found that "sloppy code" on the air is difficult to copy, at least for a beginner like me. As I've said before, I find well-sent faster code easier to copy than badly sent slower code.

Once again, I hesitate to criticize ops who are way ahead of me: they learned the whole code and got on the air! But, for instance, a few days ago I heard someone who made almost no differentiation in length between dits and dahs. Totally unreadable. The sending speed was slow, but it was the bad ratio that made it unreadable.

One of my problems with sending, at the moment, according to the software, is that my dahs are uneven: for instance dah-di-DAAAAH-dit, dah-dah-di-DAAAAH. Isn't that also how some other people actually send it, or is my "ear" deceiving me?

As for Farnsworth spacing: more experienced ops would be more authoritative than me on this subject, but if I'm not mistaken, it's used on the air (at least in a subtle manner, slightly exaggerating the inter-character and inter-word spacing) by a fair number of ops. The other day I had an email exchange with a very experienced CW op who told me that he has a sked with a friend in which they both set their keyers for 30wpm but actually send at more like 25wpm. I don't know much about keyers, but that sounds like Farnsworth spacing to me. If both parties in a QSO are happy with it, I don't see how it can do any "harm"! It's ham radio, not commercial telegraphy!

I do, however, think that *learning* with Farnsworth spacing (which is a good learning technique initially) is likely to "contaminate" your sending later, unless you make efforts to counteract this effect. I'm hoping that the above-mentioned "dual headphone" setup will help me with that. Another thing you can do is gradually eliminate Farnsworth spacing even as you complete a Morse-learning course. I'm in the process of doing that right now: I have deliberately reduced the Farnsworth spacing from a 15:20 combination to a 17:20 combination, on the way to something like 18:18 by the time I get on the air.

73 de Martin, KB1WSY
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 04:58:08 AM by KB1WSY » Logged
W4KYR
Member

Posts: 622




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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2014, 04:43:37 AM »

Your efforts to send "perfect" code using the straight key are commendable, and it sounds like you have found a clever way to practice this.
73,
Chuck  NI0C

This technique is described in Chapter 9 of "The Art and Skill of Radiotelegraphy":

73 de Martin, KB1WSY


The "The Art and Skill of Radiotelegraphy" is a FREE download at

http://www.tasrt.ca/TASRTVersions/TASRT.pdf


"The Art and Skill of Radio-Telegraphy
A Manual For Learning,Using,Mastering And Enjoying The International Morse Code As A Means
Of Communication William G. Pierpont NØHFF “What Hath God Wrought!” Third Revised Edition
July 6, 2ØØ1 Copyright © 2ØØ1 William G. Pierpont,NØHFF"


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N0IU
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Posts: 1374


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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2014, 04:54:09 AM »

Additionally, setting up an electronic keyer with a non-standard ratio of dash to dot may help you achieve a desire to be non-conformist, but I'd suggest that Morse code timing is not the best place to express your individuality.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

So if there is only one proper way to send Morse code, why do keyers have adjustments?

Maybe you can tell me who to vote for in the next election. Heaven forbid I should express my own individuality!
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NI0C
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Posts: 2437




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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2014, 05:19:40 AM »

Additionally, setting up an electronic keyer with a non-standard ratio of dash to dot may help you achieve a desire to be non-conformist, but I'd suggest that Morse code timing is not the best place to express your individuality.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

So if there is only one proper way to send Morse code, why do keyers have adjustments?

Maybe you can tell me who to vote for in the next election. Heaven forbid I should express my own individuality!
I prefer to express my individuality in other ways (such as by what I actually have to say in a conversation).  Setting one's keyer up to send goofy code is another way, I suppose. 
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PA0WV
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2014, 06:47:17 AM »

Additionally, setting up an electronic keyer with a non-standard ratio of dash to dot may help you achieve a desire to be non-conformist, but I'd suggest that Morse code timing is not the best place to express your individuality.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

So if there is only one proper way to send Morse code, why do keyers have adjustments?

Maybe you can tell me who to vote for in the next election. Heaven forbid I should express my own individuality!

Keys are adjustable, because your transmitter may shorten  the timing of your signals. The first dit or dash may be shortened due to mechanical relays and also the length of next dashes and dots with another timing error. With an adjustable keyer it is possible to compensate for that. Such that in the air your sigs are perfect timed.

Furthermore adustments are possible about the timing of dot and dash memory. But that does not distort your signal, mistiming may lead to a missing or additional undesired element.

Transmitting with distorted signals is not only to express your personality, but also to make sure human beings can copy you by brain and no code hams with some  decoder can't. Just like about some websites you have to read and type over some distorted characters in order to prove you are human and not some spam robot.

Furthermore are very weak signals better to copy with heavy weighting, so adjestments have more sense than the arbritrarily supposed expressing of personality.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 06:53:53 AM by PA0WV » Logged

Using an appliance without CW is just CB
N0IU
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« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2014, 07:41:56 AM »

I understand the reasons for making adjustments to one's keyer, but according to Chuck, adjusting your keyer in a manner which is not agreeable to his ear is not permitted because it is "goofy".
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W1JKA
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Posts: 1821




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« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2014, 08:17:08 AM »

  I always get a chuckle out of listening to a QSO when both parties are sending perfect code (to me) obviously with some type of keyer at about 25 wpm and during every exchange they are asking each other to repeat something.
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PA0WV
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Posts: 141




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« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2014, 08:33:54 AM »

Strange is the fact that we all learn in school reading and writing. The difficult part is reading hand written text, especially a birthday card from some old aunt, written in long hand, because her life experience has matured her writing slowly to something you immediately recognize as her hand.

So we have printing for mass distribution, no distortion by aging and handwork whatever.

Although in this PComputer there is a large number of fonts available. Is it to express your own personality? May be, you also can look at a page of typed out text, with some graphic work, like photo's and drawings, and it just makes a good and nice impression or just not when you take a glance over it. Then you can change the font, in order to get a product that you like more.

May be it is possibly not to impress other people or to express your personality, but just because you like your own product more with another font.

May be that is another way at looking to deliberately off timing of Morse signals?

A lot of people like sideswiper code more than straight key produced code. Is it due to the off-timing?

When we look at music the timing is factors of 2,      1-0.5-0,25-0,125 NOT 1:3.
So music that is created to suit your ears and mind, is NOT 1:3.

May be that a couple of persons deliberately shape the code more music like to a 1:4 ratio?
That makes the code really more music then it is actually often said to be.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 08:41:21 AM by PA0WV » Logged

Using an appliance without CW is just CB
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