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Author Topic: The average speed for CWing  (Read 34491 times)
KB1WSY
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Posts: 633




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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2014, 08:50:36 AM »

When we look at music the timing is factors of 2,      1-0.5-0,25-0,125 NOT 1:3.
So music that is created to suit your ears and mind, is NOT 1:3.

May be that a couple of persons deliberately shape the code more music like to a 1:4 ratio?
That makes the code really more music then it is actually often said to be.

Well, it can be either binary or ternary. A waltz is in 3/4 ...

73 de Martin, KB1WSY
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NI0C
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Posts: 2383




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« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2014, 09:14:41 AM »

I understand the reasons for making adjustments to one's keyer, but according to Chuck, adjusting your keyer in a manner which is not agreeable to his ear is not permitted because it is "goofy".
This is a complete distortion of my opinion.  Morse code was invented long before I was given ears to hear it, and there are agreed upon standards for how it should be formed. According to an earlier quote from Pierpont (N0HFF):

"It is, of course, impossible to send absolutely perfect code [using a straight key] ... but we should learn to imitate perfect sending as best we can. If you have an instructor, he should demonstrate quality sending for you".   

I'll leave it to those who disagree with how Morse code should be transmitted to make their case.  Meanwhile, I'll do my best to stick to the standards as I was taught over 50 years ago.   
73,
Chuck  NI0C
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N0IU
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Posts: 1245


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« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2014, 05:09:02 AM »

I understand the reasons for making adjustments to one's keyer, but according to Chuck, adjusting your keyer in a manner which is not agreeable to his ear is not permitted because it is "goofy".
This is a complete distortion of my opinion.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

How so? It seems to be a fairly accurate reflection of your opinion!

You said:

No, I can copy just about anything that people want to send as code.  If what you mean by Farnsworth are code characters sent at a certain speed, with long pauses between characters, then I find that excruciating to listen to.  I understand that many people learn code that way, but it doesn't sound good on the air.

Additionally, setting up an electronic keyer with a non-standard ratio of dash to dot may help you achieve a desire to be non-conformist, but I'd suggest that Morse code timing is not the best place to express your individuality.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

You learned Morse code 50+ years ago and have been using it that way ever since and I am sure you are quite adept at it. But Chuck, this is a hobby. It is not the military or some other commercial application of Morse code. There are people at all skill levels in amateur radio today and we should be happy they are using Morse code at all!

If I were one of these newer ops reading your posts, I would be scared to death to work you in fear that you would be hyper-critical of my sending abilities. I have only been doing this for slightly over 21 years, but my fist still may not be good enough for you. You are not in my log, but that's OK since I have thousands of other CW contacts in my log to make up for it.

I remember when I first got into amateur radio, I never had a problem find someone to work at my speed and would tolerate my erratic timing and spacing and I am grateful for their help. This is what newcomers need, not someone telling them there is only one way to transmit Morse code and any other way is unacceptable.

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NI0C
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Posts: 2383




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« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2014, 05:49:11 AM »

I understand the reasons for making adjustments to one's keyer, but according to Chuck, adjusting your keyer in a manner which is not agreeable to his ear is not permitted because it is "goofy".
This is a complete distortion of my opinion.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

How so? It seems to be a fairly accurate reflection of your opinion!

You said:

No, I can copy just about anything that people want to send as code.  If what you mean by Farnsworth are code characters sent at a certain speed, with long pauses between characters, then I find that excruciating to listen to.  I understand that many people learn code that way, but it doesn't sound good on the air.

Additionally, setting up an electronic keyer with a non-standard ratio of dash to dot may help you achieve a desire to be non-conformist, but I'd suggest that Morse code timing is not the best place to express your individuality.

73,
Chuck  NI0C

You learned Morse code 50+ years ago and have been using it that way ever since and I am sure you are quite adept at it. But Chuck, this is a hobby. It is not the military or some other commercial application of Morse code. There are people at all skill levels in amateur radio today and we should be happy they are using Morse code at all!

If I were one of these newer ops reading your posts, I would be scared to death to work you in fear that you would be hyper-critical of my sending abilities. I have only been doing this for slightly over 21 years, but my fist still may not be good enough for you. You are not in my log, but that's OK since I have thousands of other CW contacts in my log to make up for it.

I remember when I first got into amateur radio, I never had a problem find someone to work at my speed and would tolerate my erratic timing and spacing and I am grateful for their help. This is what newcomers need, not someone telling them there is only one way to transmit Morse code and any other way is unacceptable.


Again, you have distorted and extrapolated my remarks.  I was only critical of those who, having their own idea of what Morse code should sound like, setup their keyers improperly.  I have no problem with bad fists, mistakes, etc. 
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PA0WV
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Posts: 93




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« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2014, 06:23:39 AM »

OK gentlemen, in order to decide for yourself about the possibly severe distorted signals of N0IU I
made an mp3 file with "the quick brown fox..."  with dashlength and letterspacing 4 times the dot time
starting with 5 wpm and ending with 80 wpm. So decide for yourself.

May be I made an error in this quick not debugged design , please check the timing with an audio program like audacity

http://pa0wv.home.xs4all.nl/test.mp3

73 PA0WV 30

EDIT: the mentioned speeds are based on the dotlength, the streched dashes will make the mentioned speeds lower.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 07:06:56 AM by PA0WV » Logged
W1JKA
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Posts: 1618




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« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2014, 07:23:13 AM »

  Since the OP Topic question was quickly and correctly answered in Reply #6 (N0IU) and since  moot, the Topic has now drifted over to the proper character spacing/time interval between issue of which is defined by many hams as being what ever prescribed method or type of schooling was involved in his learning CW. Fact is there is no one common proper Fist or spacing interval. As for straight key, amateur and professional CW ops have no common fist and spacing alike, for the professional this is accepted since many operators can instantly identify many others by variations in their (non perfect) fist alone long before station identification (ship R/Os ?). For amateurs most will admit that the best way to learning and copying on air CW is by listening and working the wide variations on non perfect CW (it all averages out in time). Now for the Keyer boys, what is a keyer other than a device used to send the operators definition of whatever He thinks consistant proper spacing etc. is. As we have all heard at one time or another a ham with keyer can be just as disastrous as an OT novice first time out with a straight key. So weather sk or keyer get on the air have fun and 98% of your contacts will copy your imperfect spacing while the rest are still in search of the Holy Grail of proper spacing, fist etc.
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KB1WSY
Member

Posts: 633




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« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2014, 11:48:43 AM »

OK gentlemen, in order to decide for yourself about the possibly severe distorted signals of N0IU I
made an mp3 file with "the quick brown fox..."  with dashlength and letterspacing 4 times the dot time
starting with 5 wpm and ending with 80 wpm. So decide for yourself.

Listening to your example, I find it slightly harder to copy than the "normal" 1:3 ratio I've been learning with. The added difficulty is minor. When I'm more experienced with CW, it's likely that I'd have no trouble with it at all.

I have far bigger problems in copying ops who have irregular sending (varying dah-lengths and varying speeds), or whose dits and dahs are too similar in length.
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PA0WV
Member

Posts: 93




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« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2014, 01:57:33 PM »

OK gentlemen, in order to decide for yourself about the possibly severe distorted signals of N0IU I
made an mp3 file with "the quick brown fox..."  with dashlength and letterspacing 4 times the dot time
starting with 5 wpm and ending with 80 wpm. So decide for yourself.

Listening to your example, I find it slightly harder to copy than the "normal" 1:3 ratio I've been learning with. The added difficulty is minor. When I'm more experienced with CW, it's likely that I'd have no trouble with it at all.

I have far bigger problems in copying ops who have irregular sending (varying dah-lengths and varying speeds), or whose dits and dahs are too similar in length.

Tks QSL
With the G4FON software you can add noise . bad fist, chirp QSB and QRM. Chirp you will hardly hear anymore on the bands,
That was more with a 813 tube as oscillator and final in a one tube transmitter.

You know Morse Machine? It generates characters and when typed in the next one or a repetition when wrong.
PA0WV 30
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M0LEP
Member

Posts: 200




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« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2014, 01:08:13 AM »

With the G4FON software you can add noise . bad fist, chirp QSB and QRM. Chirp you will hardly hear anymore on the bands,
That was more with a 813 tube as oscillator and final in a one tube transmitter.

It's a pity that kind of adjustability isn't present in most of the other Morse training programs. I find it  much easier on the ear when the tone isn't a pure computer-generated one.

You can still hear chirpy signals at times, usually (at least here) from stations in Eastern Europe and Northern Asia.
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KB1WSY
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Posts: 633




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« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2014, 01:56:20 AM »

You can still hear chirpy signals at times, usually (at least here) from stations in Eastern Europe and Northern Asia.

My regenerative receiver adds chirp of its own! If the signal is strong, it "pulls" the oscillating detector, producing a quaint and fairly extreme chirp! Good copy practice for me! (I think this can be solved if I add a one-transistor RF isolation stage in front of the detector.)

With the G4FON software you can add noise . bad fist, chirp QSB and QRM.

I really like G4FON. The only problem I'm having with it is that it is relatively inflexible in setting speeds. For instance there is no intermediate character transmission speed between 15wpm and 20wpm. I would have liked having 17wpm or 18wpm for instance. I'm using a 20+17 setting right now, and I would have liked to eventually switch to 17+17 or 18+18 to eliminate the Farnsworth spacing. But the only two choices I have seem to be either 15+15 or 20+20. The former is too slow, the latter is too fast, in my current learning stage. So when I finish learning the entire character set, I will probably stop using G4FON and switch to a program that has finer-grained speed settings.

73 de Martin, KB1WSY
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 01:59:47 AM by KB1WSY » Logged
M0LEP
Member

Posts: 200




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« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2014, 03:08:10 AM »

I really like G4FON. The only problem I'm having with it is that it is relatively inflexible in setting speeds.

Yeah, the inflexibility was one of the reasons I gave up with it. The other was that it didn't really get on with WINE on linux or MacOS, and tended to hang at random (probably a WINE issue, though, as JLMC did similar things)...
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KB1WSY
Member

Posts: 633




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« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2014, 03:39:37 AM »

I really like G4FON. The only problem I'm having with it is that it is relatively inflexible in setting speeds.

Yeah, the inflexibility was one of the reasons I gave up with it. The other was that it didn't really get on with WINE on linux or MacOS, and tended to hang at random (probably a WINE issue, though, as JLMC did similar things)...

Rick, remind me, what did you switch to? Or perhaps you dumped Koch altogether, I can't remember ... I can't remember much at all, nowadays!

73 de Martin, KB1WSY
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M0LEP
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Posts: 200




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« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2014, 10:12:17 AM »

Rick, remind me, what did you switch to? Or perhaps you dumped Koch altogether, I can't remember ... I can't remember much at all, nowadays!

I dumped Kock altogether, and just tried learning the whole character set in one go. However, programs are handy for exercises. I fell back on lcwo.net, which is the only cross-platform option that actually works on all the systems I use. At present I'm using its word and callsign training options.
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STAYVERTICAL
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Posts: 854




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« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2014, 12:26:28 PM »

While it is difficult to avoid the learning "style wars" my philosophy is one that nature seems to prefer.
Take the lowest energy route, and improve on it until you reach an equilibrium point.

So taking a sword to all the trendy training methods and getting down to the basics it is ridiculously simple.

...

Take any morse sending program which gives you a speaker output option (CWtype for example).
Adjust the speed to just a bit more than you can read comfortably.
Then cut and paste in your text and listen...listen... and when you are done ... listen more.

When you are comfortable at that speed, increase the speed by 1 to 2 wpm - you won't even notice the difference.

Repeat until you have reached your target speed.

...

On the average speed for CW - nominally 17-18wpm in my experience.

During contests 30wpm +++.

...

On CW fist style - there is only one style - the correct spacing and element length - anything else is corruption.

In my opinion CW style is an artifact of too many operators using bug keys poorly, or who are just bad straight key operators.
Mercifully, the "swing and style" crowd is dwindling these days, and with the advent of keyers in rigs the number of
good CW sending ops is increasing.

Just yesterday I worked a very experienced CW op who's sending style was so terrible I prefer to go to the Dentist than work him again.
It changed a chance for a nice qso into the CW version of waterboarding.

So to CW beginners - always go for perfect CW spacing and timing as goal.
If anyone tries to convince you that having a distinctive fist is a good thing, it is like a smoker trying to convince a non smoker to take a puff.

Above all, immerse yourself in CW - keep it on the receiver in the background as you do other things for example.
Like being in a foreign language country, you will eventually pick up the language and be able to enjoy the experience.

Good luck and 73,

Rob
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PA0WV
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Posts: 93




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« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2014, 01:11:28 AM »


So to CW beginners - always go for perfect CW spacing and timing as goal.
If anyone tries to convince you that having a distinctive fist is a good thing, it is like a smoker trying to convince a non smoker to take a puff.


Convincing other amateurs not to let them  being  convinced by other amateurs is inherently a contradiction.

Wim
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