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Author Topic: Thick-Pipe vs Thin-Pipe SDR Configurations  (Read 13905 times)
W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 03:57:12 PM »

Funny that when the KX-3 was first announced and was still vaporware the big talk about it was how Elecraft was going to deliver it at the price point of the Flex 1500 and it actually turned out to be closer to the 3000 in cost. I actually thought I may have wanted one if they could produce it for the price of the 1500 or a little more but my common sense told me they were blowing smoke and I was right. I won't argue performance vs. price for the 5K and 3K vs. the competition but the 1500 wins hands down in any comparison of price vs. performance and it doesn't matter what you compare it to.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
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SWL2002
Member

Posts: 248




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 04:07:45 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



Another Ham who looks at the world through Flex colored glasses.  The term SDR does not imply that it must be a transceiver.  Transmit is the least interesting and the most mundane part.

SDRs that perform better than the Flex 1500, 3000, or 5000 receivers:

Microtelecom Perseus
Software Radio Laboratory QS1R
RF Space netSDR
Winradio Excalibur
HPSDR Mercury
HPSDR HERMES
Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

The HERMES, ANAN10/100/D and QS1R (with QS1E exciter add-on) also transmit.
Logged
NI0Z
Member

Posts: 560


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge. 

Logged

K5TED
Member

Posts: 703




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 05:30:02 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



Another Ham who looks at the world through Flex colored glasses.  The term SDR does not imply that it must be a transceiver.  Transmit is the least interesting and the most mundane part.

SDRs that perform better than the Flex 1500, 3000, or 5000 receivers:

Microtelecom Perseus
Software Radio Laboratory QS1R
RF Space netSDR
Winradio Excalibur
HPSDR Mercury
HPSDR HERMES
Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

The HERMES, ANAN10/100/D and QS1R (with QS1E exciter add-on) also transmit.

More accurately, I look at SDRs through Ham colored glasses,which you can't do, what with no call sign and all..
Logged
W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 05:30:46 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge.  


Price wise there is not a transceiver that comes close to the 1500 as far a dollar for dollar performance.  I haven't used a KX-3 but I highly doubt it has much on the 1500 as far as RX performance and even if it did, it cost several hundred more dollars.  Plus, I have absolutely no interest in the knobs and the display on a KX-3. If I used it as a base radio, I'd have it hooked to my PC and be using something to give me a GUI anyway. In that case, the knob and display are just a redundant waste of money. Having owned a 5K, I can tell you that there is not that much difference in real world performance between the RX of my 1500 and that of the 5K. Sure, the numbers are better and there's more bells and whistles but in just day to day use, I don't really miss my 5K all that much compared to the 1500. I know Flex probably hates it when people say that but it's the truth. There is absolutely no better bang for the buck in the entire ham radio market than the 1500. Follow it up with a small solid state 50 watt amp like I have here that I built plus an antenna tuner and you have a very capable SDR station for less than 1000 dollars.  Plus you don't have to live with one of the substandard piece of crap RX's that the big three Japanese companies will stick you with on any of their  lower dollar lower end offerings. Like I said, if Elecraft could have delivered the KX-3 at the price point of the 1500 like they BS'ed they were going to then it may have been worth a second look but for the money they actually want, I'd just as soon go ahead and buy a Flex 3K.
Michael, W4HIJ
Logged
K5TED
Member

Posts: 703




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 05:34:51 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge. 



You didn't meet the challenge. You provided examples of radios that should be expected to outperform based on price point, not actual price/features.  Apples and oranges.

Since you have both the 5k and the KX3, how about doing a true side by side,same antenna, same relative settings, real comparison on weak and noisy signals, and on strong adjacent signals. That would be cool.
Logged
W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 05:36:34 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



Another Ham who looks at the world through Flex colored glasses.  The term SDR does not imply that it must be a transceiver.  Transmit is the least interesting and the most mundane part.

SDRs that perform better than the Flex 1500, 3000, or 5000 receivers:

Microtelecom Perseus
Software Radio Laboratory QS1R
RF Space netSDR
Winradio Excalibur
HPSDR Mercury
HPSDR HERMES
Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

The HERMES, ANAN10/100/D and QS1R (with QS1E exciter add-on) also transmit.

More accurately, I look at SDRs through Ham colored glasses,which you can't do, what with no call sign and all..
You would do yourself a great service by just putting the "SWL" idiot on ignore just as I have done.  He has  a place of dishonor right next to the coward K9IUQ.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ
Logged
NI0Z
Member

Posts: 560


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 05:49:18 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge. 



You didn't meet the challenge. You provided examples of radios that should be expected to outperform based on price point, not actual price/features.  Apples and oranges.

Since you have both the 5k and the KX3, how about doing a true side by side,same antenna, same relative settings, real comparison on weak and noisy signals, and on strong adjacent signals. That would be cool.

I have done a side by side, KX3 beats the Flex 5K.  Flex 5K beats 3000 & 1500.  Ergo KX3 beats all three of the Flexes.

The Flex 6K series should beat the KX3.. But it's not a given that it will beat the Anan's, we just have to wait and see.  It's kinda of like how the FT3K should have been better or equal, however, test showed it wasn't.  I will soon be able to compare the Anan against the Flex 5K.

I have no brand bias, I just report it how I see it.  Radios are just radios for me and I look at them as objectively as I can.
Logged

SWL2002
Member

Posts: 248




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 05:54:45 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



Another Ham who looks at the world through Flex colored glasses.  The term SDR does not imply that it must be a transceiver.  Transmit is the least interesting and the most mundane part.

SDRs that perform better than the Flex 1500, 3000, or 5000 receivers:

Microtelecom Perseus
Software Radio Laboratory QS1R
RF Space netSDR
Winradio Excalibur
HPSDR Mercury
HPSDR HERMES
Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

The HERMES, ANAN10/100/D and QS1R (with QS1E exciter add-on) also transmit.

More accurately, I look at SDRs through Ham colored glasses,which you can't do, what with no call sign and all..
You would do yourself a great service by just putting the "SWL" idiot on ignore just as I have done.  He has  a place of dishonor right next to the coward K9IUQ.
73,
Michael, W4HIJ

Typical... Resort to name calling when you find you can't argue with our points.  You sir are a pitiful human being.
Logged
SWL2002
Member

Posts: 248




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 06:02:50 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge.  



You didn't meet the challenge. You provided examples of radios that should be expected to outperform based on price point, not actual price/features.  Apples and oranges.

Since you have both the 5k and the KX3, how about doing a true side by side,same antenna, same relative settings, real comparison on weak and noisy signals, and on strong adjacent signals. That would be cool.

I have done a side by side, KX3 beats the Flex 5K.  Flex 5K beats 3000 & 1500.  Ergo KX3 beats all three of the Flexes.

The Flex 6K series should beat the KX3.. But it's not a given that it will beat the Anan's, we just have to wait and see.  It's kinda of like how the FT3K should have been better or equal, however, test showed it wasn't.  I will soon be able to compare the Anan against the Flex 5K.

I have no brand bias, I just report it how I see it.  Radios are just radios for me and I look at them as objectively as I can.

I would not be surprised if the kx3 does not beat the f6k on the sherwood list when it is eventually tested.  The SFDR of the ADC that Flex is using in the F6k is no better than the SFDR of the ADCs used in other direct sampling SDRs despite the 250 msps sample rate.  Flex has also had to use a clock generator chip to generate the much higher sample clock which may translate into inferior phase noise than the perseus or kx3 on the sherwood list.  I took a close look at the f6k on display at Dayton.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 06:05:23 PM by SWL2002 » Logged
K5TED
Member

Posts: 703




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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 06:06:56 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge. 



You didn't meet the challenge. You provided examples of radios that should be expected to outperform based on price point, not actual price/features.  Apples and oranges.

Since you have both the 5k and the KX3, how about doing a true side by side,same antenna, same relative settings, real comparison on weak and noisy signals, and on strong adjacent signals. That would be cool.

I have done a side by side, KX3 beats the Flex 5K.  Flex 5K beats 3000 & 1500.  Ergo KX3 beats all three of the Flexes.

The Flex 6K series should beat the KX3.. But it's not a given that it will beat the Anan's, we just have to wait and see.  It's kinda of like how the FT3K should have been better or equal, however, test showed it wasn't.  I will soon be able to compare the Anan against the Flex 5K.

I have no brand bias, I just report it how I see it.  Radios are just radios for me and I look at them as objectively as I can.

Point taken. I was hoping you might do a KX3 vs F5k as I mentioned, and might YouTube the experiment, or just provide an audio L/R, same antenna, same relative settings, etc. so we might actually hear the difference. I did one with a lowly cobbled together IF tapped receiver vs the F3k and was surprised at the almost imperceptible difference on a very weak station.

Considering all the A vs. B comparisons I've seen on YouTube, for example, I'm surprised to as yet not find a KX3 vs any supposedly comparably priced current production rig, properly executed, properly staged, in real life operation. There was one that came close, with KX3 and FT817ND which was almost convincing in a CW reception test.

Maybe I'm not looking hard enough, or maybe the difference isn't as exciting as it is purported to be.

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NI0Z
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 06:13:57 PM »


There are many SDRs on the market (many of which I have personal experience with) that use the PC for DSP processing and DO NOT have the latency issues/hiccups that Flex had.....If you would venture out of your little Flex-colored world into the larger world of SDR, then you would see that there are many successful PC based implementations without the issues that Flex has had.



Please entertain us with a comprehensive list, or even two examples of mainstream SDR's on the market comparable in overall TX/RX performance to the Flex 5000, or even the 3000. In fact, if you know of one with the performance, and fit/finish of the Flex 1500, please document here.



The KX3, much nicer fit and finish and near the top of the charts for receive capability.  Fully decked out it only cost around $1500.

Anan 10
Anan 100
Anan 100D

All of which can out perform the Flex 5000.  Possibly may out perform the Flex 6K series as well.  Have to wait and see!

Quick Silver QS1R ... out performs the Flex 5000.

They are all cheaper new than a used Flex 5K.  In most cases even if you add a TenTec or Elecraft 100 watt amp they still end up being cheaper.

And here is the kicker, lol, they are all Fat!

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

 There are a few German ones that probably will measure up as well.  Flex 5K is old stuff.  Most of the new SDRs are going to make it pale in comparison.

Starting at the bottom, There's a $17000 German SDR that comes to mind. Definitely not mainstream, nor are there any other German offerings in the world of SDR transceivers that can be considered "mainstream".

Quick Silver QS1R is not a transceiver.

The Anans are possibly the only contender for the coveted position of "mainstream", even though they've only been in production for months. That's not quite what I would consider "many" transceiver SDR options currently available.

As for the KX3, it's priced closer to a Flex 3000, and has 1/10 the output. To give it the full output, one would have to bump the price up at least $400 for a reasonably good amp. That's up to almost $2000 with TTL. I just saw a used Flex 5k with 2nd rRX and ATU go for $2375 right here on eHam. Have you ever compared the rearend of a Flex 5k with 2nd RX and ATU to the few available connections on a KX3? Hardly in the same class of radio.


So far, I haven't seen "many" other mainstream SDR transceivers comparable to the Flex radios in price point/feature set. There are a couple of dissimilar sets that offer some of the same functionality and features.

It's just a matter of time, of course, before some mainstream manufacturer unveils a true competitor. I suspect Flex has something in store to replace the 3000.

Oh, about that Flex 1500 comparison... Oh wait. There is no other mainstream manufacturer ready to go out of the box $700 5 watt 160-6m USB SDR with dual antenna ports and IF out. Is there? I may have missed one...



The 1500 does not even come close to a KX3 for Reciever performance, even if you take all the options off it outright whoops the 1500.  Plus you get knobs, a display and lots of options.  Lets not get ridiculous now!  The 1500 looks like an old toaster with jacks on it.

The QS1R does have an exciter now, again, no comparison on the receivers here, the Flex 3000 and Flex 1500 aren't even close to their big brother the 5K and certainly none of them have better receivers than the QS1R or the KX3.

The Anans are now mainstream.

You asked for examples and now that there are scores of them the argument has changed.  I won't waste any more time on the discussion.  You asked and it was provided.  I'd say its time to admit you were off base with your challenge.  


Price wise there is not a transceiver that comes close to the 1500 as far a dollar for dollar performance.  I haven't used a KX-3 but I highly doubt it has much on the 1500 as far as RX performance and even if it did, it cost several hundred more dollars.  Plus, I have absolutely no interest in the knobs and the display on a KX-3. If I used it as a base radio, I'd have it hooked to my PC and be using something to give me a GUI anyway. In that case, the knob and display are just a redundant waste of money. Having owned a 5K, I can tell you that there is not that much difference in real world performance between the RX of my 1500 and that of the 5K. Sure, the numbers are better and there's more bells and whistles but in just day to day use, I don't really miss my 5K all that much compared to the 1500. I know Flex probably hates it when people say that but it's the truth. There is absolutely no better bang for the buck in the entire ham radio market than the 1500. Follow it up with a small solid state 50 watt amp like I have here that I built plus an antenna tuner and you have a very capable SDR station for less than 1000 dollars.  Plus you don't have to live with one of the substandard piece of crap RX's that the big three Japanese companies will stick you with on any of their  lower dollar lower end offerings. Like I said, if Elecraft could have delivered the KX-3 at the price point of the 1500 like they BS'ed they were going to then it may have been worth a second look but for the money they actually want, I'd just as soon go ahead and buy a Flex 3K.
Michael, W4HIJ


If you don't have a great antenna and a clean low noise shack, you'll see little performance difference between radios because the noise floor places a limit on performance.

It would be a little like pouring low grade,fuel into a Ferrari.  

If your 1500 works for you and you feel great about, disengage from this silly conversation.  Trying to compare it to top receivers and claiming its the best when it obviously is not makes little sense unless..... Wait for it.... You are a  brand biggot.

Fan boys have zero credibility with me because they end up being one dimensional in conversations as their sole purpose is to claim they own the best brand of radios.  I don't say this to be rude but its a little like asking Bill Gates for dead Steve Jobs for an objective opinion on PCs verses Macs.  Ain't going to happen!

Fan boys are bad news for other hams, bad bad news because they provide biased slanted views to other hams.  Honestly, part of Flexes problems are do to unrealistic expectations their fan boys created without Flex's permission.  They made lots of false claims that new buyers trusted and got burned by.  That is shameful in my humble opinion.  Bad for the ham and bad for the brand!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 06:18:12 PM by NI0Z » Logged

SWL2002
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2013, 06:15:18 PM »

I ordered a f1500 last year and returned it within the 30 days.  If it would have cost $200, it might be an OK deal.  It is certainly not worth the price they get for it.  Heck, i put together a multi band softrock kit for less than $100 that outperforms the Flex 1500.  I even put it in the same Hammond enclosure that the f1500 uses for $29.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 06:19:06 PM by SWL2002 » Logged
K5TED
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2013, 06:18:53 PM »

"If you don't have a great antenna and a clean low noise shack, you'll see little performance difference between radios because the noise floor place a limit on performance"

Case closed. In real life, real operation in a non-ideal environment, the difference is insignificant. Thanks for coming around to my point.
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SWL2002
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2013, 06:22:00 PM »

"If you don't have a great antenna and a clean low noise shack, you'll see little performance difference between radios because the noise floor place a limit on performance"

Case closed. In real life, real operation in a non-ideal environment, the difference is insignificant. Thanks for coming around to my point.

Notice how every thread with this guy gets turned into a diatribe of how incredibly great his flex 1500 is.  Clearly this is the response of a certified fanboy.  Even when clearly shown to be wrong, he tries to twist the thread into proving he is right about his precious toy.  Just shameful.
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