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Author Topic: Batteries may be soon obsolete  (Read 5295 times)
KE3WD
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2013, 06:35:46 AM »

You can't convince the cynic.  I think that is because the naysayer has too much fun with the naysaying thing. 

73
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KE7TMA
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Posts: 471




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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 01:45:13 AM »

You can't convince the cynic.  I think that is because the naysayer has too much fun with the naysaying thing. 

73

So how do these things work in your shack so far?  Do you like them?

Oh wait they aren't for sale, and neither are the 3D storage cubes and fully optical computers that were "5-10 years away" 20 years ago...
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KE3WD
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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 07:15:59 AM »

Actually, I have. 

Investigating the original papers on the subject, I found out that the two physicists who discovered this whole process to be based on "Graphene" -- a form of Carbon. 

Further reading uncovered that these two fellow discovered the capacitive storage situation quite by accident, but had their Serendippity glasses on at the time. 

They were cleaning ordinary pencil graphite, carbon, if you will, from some stones for some reason, and were using transparent tape to do that. 

The carbon would adhere to the sticky side of the tape. 

Apparently one of them looked at a piece of the tape that was so covered on the sticky side with the carbon rubbed from the stone and realized they had a flexible, thin, layer of something conductive adhered to something dielectric. 

And anyone who has a bit of curiousity coupled with the love of hands on experimentation can use those same tools to check out the Graphene capacitor situation, rather easily, I might add. 

To my way of thinking, whether or not a discovery comes to market fruition isn't necessarily the goal, or at least not the only goal. 

But I do not view everything in this world to be market driven. 


73
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K9AIM
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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 07:58:36 AM »


To my way of thinking, whether or not a discovery comes to market fruition isn't necessarily the goal, or at least not the only goal. 

But I do not view everything in this world to be market driven. 

73

mock horror  Shocked

 Cool cheering! Cool
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KE7TMA
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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 01:27:35 PM »

I don't think that scientific progress is boring or useless if it isn't commercialized, but academics have a way of fishing for grants and partnerships.
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W8JX
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 02:02:46 PM »

I don't think that scientific progress is boring or useless if it isn't commercialized, but academics have a way of fishing for grants and partnerships.

While this maybe somewhat true at times, there have been many accidental discoveries in past that have borne good fruit in commercial market place.
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WI8P
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 03:09:06 PM »

Sako has been using capacitors in their watches in place of batteries for years albeit with mixed results.  The Kinetic line uses a flywheel that swings with motions from the user and coils to create a small electrical charge which is stored in the capacitor.  The watch can run for several days without any activity.  The down side is some were plagued with capacitor problems (mine among them) and had to have the capacitor replaced long after the factory warranty had expired at a cost far more than using batteries would have been.  After more than 13 years of daily use, the watch continues to run well and keep time accurately. 
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KD8TUT
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« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2013, 04:00:10 AM »

These so called "super caps" will definitely have a place in the future.

The big problem with them may relate to a ratio of energy density to size- coupled with volatility. Lithium batteries have high energy density and some variations have high C (with marginally less density). Most of their chemistries present an explosive potential when mishandled or with the failure of a protection circuit. They are also water reactive. So I consider them pretty dicey as energy storage- even though I use them every single day.

Caps that we are all used to working with, have been known to explode. These new ones might do the same thing.

So I'm somewhat wary of higher energy densities. Not trying to be too cynical, they always find a way to make things safer. But after seeing a prismatic lithium cobalt battery explode from a failed protection circuit- it makes me a little shy of new storage tech at high energy density.

A 2500 mAh battery can torch a hole through human skin pretty easily if the cells are damaged or it goes over current.
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KE3WD
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« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2013, 06:18:29 AM »

How Lithium battery technology got into Graphene capacitor shortcomings is a puzzlement. 

Meanwhile, the non-Graphene Supercap has all but replaced the use of Memory Cell batteries in everything from ham radios to video receivers. 

The designs of humans are always things that must consist of tradeoffs. 

Somehow we've managed to get by using the stuff despite the tradeoffs. 


73
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KD8TUT
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2013, 08:02:04 AM »

How Lithium battery technology got into Graphene capacitor shortcomings is a puzzlement. 

Meanwhile, the non-Graphene Supercap has all but replaced the use of Memory Cell batteries in everything from ham radios to video receivers. 

The designs of humans are always things that must consist of tradeoffs. 

Somehow we've managed to get by using the stuff despite the tradeoffs. 


73

The connection is with energy density. Higher energy density leads to higher volatility.

So the issue with any energy storage device is stability. That is how it relates to super caps. If they are intended to replace a 2000 mAh battery, is there a safety factor? Is it safer compared to a lion chemistry at high energy potentials?

Safety/cost will be the combination that determines whether the "super caps" replace more than watch/cmos/powered memory batteries.

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N2MG
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« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2013, 08:37:48 AM »

Quote
The connection is with energy density. Higher energy density leads to higher volatility.
So the issue with any energy storage device is stability.

I guess my question is do the safety risks associated with energy density really apply to a passive device such as a super cap (Graphene or otherwise) compare to the risks associated with devices using chemical-based storage (Lithium etc)?

Mike N2MG
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W8JX
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« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 09:15:14 AM »

Quote
The connection is with energy density. Higher energy density leads to higher volatility.
So the issue with any energy storage device is stability.

I guess my question is do the safety risks associated with energy density really apply to a passive device such as a super cap (Graphene or otherwise) compare to the risks associated with devices using chemical-based storage (Lithium etc)?

Mike N2MG

Any battery that relies on a chemical conversation to store and release energy, will have its weakest safety link in said conversion
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N2MG
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« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2013, 10:02:46 AM »

Quote
Any battery that relies on a chemical conversation to store and release energy, will have its weakest safety link in said conversion

Exactly my point.  A graphene (or otherwise) super-cap is NOT going to suffer from the same safety ills as a Lithium-based battery.  So the future use case for the standalone super-cap (note that many lithium-type battery designs use super-caps) is different, and potentially better, MUCH better.
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KE3WD
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« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2013, 10:21:12 AM »

Now I'm being lectured on energy density. 

gotta luvit


73
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KD8TUT
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Posts: 59




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« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2013, 01:21:50 PM »

Quote
Any battery that relies on a chemical conversation to store and release energy, will have its weakest safety link in said conversion

Exactly my point.  A graphene (or otherwise) super-cap is NOT going to suffer from the same safety ills as a Lithium-based battery.  So the future use case for the standalone super-cap (note that many lithium-type battery designs use super-caps) is different, and potentially better, MUCH better.

But you really do not know that until there are examples to test.
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