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Author Topic: Batteries may be soon obsolete  (Read 16703 times)
KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 367




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« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2013, 01:23:34 PM »

Now I'm being lectured on energy density. 

gotta luvit


73

I'm trying to discuss the subject... sadly your ego is louder than anything I could possibly contribute.
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N2MG
Administrator

Posts: 17



« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2013, 01:28:43 PM »

Quote
A graphene (or otherwise) super-cap is NOT going to suffer from the same safety ills as a Lithium-based battery.  So the future use case for the standalone super-cap (note that many lithium-type battery designs use super-caps) is different, and potentially better, MUCH better.
Quote
But you really do not know that until there are examples to test.

Of course!

The real data will come when industry tries to turn it into a marketable product.
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KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 367




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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 01:29:42 PM »

Quote
The connection is with energy density. Higher energy density leads to higher volatility.
So the issue with any energy storage device is stability.

I guess my question is do the safety risks associated with energy density really apply to a passive device such as a super cap (Graphene or otherwise) compare to the risks associated with devices using chemical-based storage (Lithium etc)?

Mike N2MG

Well we know that failing electrolytic capacitors do sometimes explode. I've had them pop on logic boards, both during testing and passively due to age.

They usually leave a scorch mark on the PCB. And smell pretty bad.

Which is why I'm pointing out the energy density issue, because if a cap had the storage capacity of a larger battery... would the failures be more or less catastrophic?

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N2MG
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Posts: 17



« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 01:33:31 PM »

Good point. 

Somehow, to me, the relative inert nature of a thin layer of carbon compared with lithium, or some electrolyte, gives it a potential edge.

Again, we must wait for it to be shown.
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KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 367




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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2013, 01:35:00 PM »

Good point. 

Somehow, to me, the relative inert nature of a thin layer of carbon compared with lithium, or some electrolyte, gives it a potential edge.

Again, we must wait for it to be shown.

Yes, but you also bring up a good point. Noted. Smiley
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KE3WD
Member

Posts: 5689




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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2013, 03:43:16 PM »


I'm trying to discuss the subject... sadly your ego is louder than anything I could possibly contribute.

You've already lost any argument the moment you resort to the ad hominem attack, y'know...

It means that you've run out of salient ideas. 


73
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K1CJS
Member

Posts: 6231




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« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2013, 04:49:53 AM »

Good point. 

Somehow, to me, the relative inert nature of a thin layer of carbon compared with lithium, or some electrolyte, gives it a potential edge.

Again, we must wait for it to be shown.

And that is one reason why I stated what I did.  Even though it seems to be usable, it still hasn't been proven as safe and reliable enough to replace batteries, especially higher capacity ones.
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6231




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« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2013, 04:52:56 AM »

Now I'm being lectured on energy density. 
gotta luvit

I'm trying to discuss the subject... sadly your ego is louder than anything I could possibly contribute.

Thanks.  I couldn't seem to come up with the words you used regarding that gentleman.  Anyway, my problem is solved.  The ignore button is useful in cases like this.
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WA7EQX
Member

Posts: 4




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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2016, 09:23:21 PM »

I have some and they work just fine. Charge and discharge. Farad not microfarad.  My question is why would they not work great in a power supply that I am building (12 volt) and if we have a reason not to use them. I see them as the very near future. More experiments to come. 
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ONAIR
Member

Posts: 2848




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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2016, 12:56:59 AM »

Interesting concept!  It would sure give a boost to the electric vehicle industry.  They are now talking about embedding cables into roadways and charging electric vehicles on the fly!
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W1JKA
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Posts: 2034




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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 02:54:08 AM »

Interesting concept!  It would sure give a boost to the electric vehicle industry.  They are now talking about embedding cables into roadways and charging electric vehicles on the fly!

I like that idea, basically along the lines of our present 3rd rail system, it sure would be a boom for AT QRP thru hikers,
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 02:56:27 AM by W1JKA » Logged
SOFAR
Member

Posts: 674




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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 03:44:04 AM »

Interesting concept!  It would sure give a boost to the electric vehicle industry.  They are now talking about embedding cables into roadways and charging electric vehicles on the fly!



I like that idea, basically along the lines of our present 3rd rail system, it sure would be a boom for AT QRP thru hikers,

Why not just go back to the electric trolleys?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 04:25:17 AM by SOFAR » Logged
KB0TXC
Member

Posts: 164




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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 05:24:07 AM »


No it seems it was discovered by accident by a student in a university lab. I involves layers of carbon one atom thick. Still several years from mass production but is expected to be widely available in 10 years or less.   

I remember, in the early 1990s, reading about how optical computing and 3-d storage cubes were "5-10 years away."

These academic tech timeline estimates are half prognostication, and half grant prospecting.  As with preachers and politicians, you sometimes have to hear what they say, but you don't have to believe it.

You forgot used car salesmen... :-(
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W1JKA
Member

Posts: 2034




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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 05:49:23 AM »


No it seems it was discovered by accident by a student in a university lab. I involves layers of carbon one atom thick. Still several years from mass production but is expected to be widely available in 10 years or less.   

I remember, in the early 1990s, reading about how optical computing and 3-d storage cubes were "5-10 years away."

These academic tech timeline estimates are half prognostication, and half grant prospecting.  As with preachers and politicians, you sometimes have to hear what they say, but you don't have to believe it.

You forgot used car salesmen... :-(

and used ham transceiver sellers on E-Pay
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KF7CG
Member

Posts: 1110




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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 11:44:52 AM »

Super capacitors might prove an interesting energy source though I suspect power regulation circuitry will give the engineers fits. Capacitors have a unique charge/discharge curve. Just lookup RC time constants in the electronics, physics, and math books. Batteries also have interesting charge/discharge profiles, but for a long period of time investigations on the chemistry concentrated on getting a fairly flat voltage curve over the most used range of charge.

Energy density in energy storage system is not as critical a factor for safety as is the ability to control the energy delivery rate. Too much energy delivered over too little time can be catastrophic. A chemical example: Burn a gallon of gasoline over a period of four hours probably no problem, burn that same gallon in 0.01 seconds and you probably have a large problem.  For electricity, 10 amp/hrs delivered over 10 hours is not to big a problem, the same 10 amp/hrs delivered in a millisecond is something else.

So to energy density as a possible concern we must and the ability to maintain control of delivery rate to our list of factors.

Just more food for thought.

KF7CG
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